I hate the way I played it on every street

[Brian]

Party 3/6. New to the table so no specific reads. I am dealt A /images/graemlins/spade.gif K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif on the Button. EP, MP, LP, CO all limp, I raise. SB folds, BB calls, rest call. I considered just limping here and I probably would have if there had been 1 more limper. 6 to the Flop for 12sb.

Flop: A /images/graemlins/heart.gif J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

All check to me and I bet, only MP and CO fold. I heavily considered checking here, hoping to eliminate some of the field on the Turn with a raise, but I had no idea where the bet would come from, and figured it would just backfire in my face. 4 to the Turn for 16sb (8bb).

Turn: 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

BB checks, EP bets, LP folds, I raise. My raise here was for two reasons. 1, to charge the BB if he decided to chase, and 2, because I did not think I would be re-raised unless the EP player held an extremely strong hand. I was planning on taking a free showdown unless I improved on the River.

BB calls, EP re-raises. Welp, that plan turned to dogsht. I considered folding it right here, and I think that may have been the best play. But, at the time I thought to myself, it couldn't be right to raise the Turn in such a large pot and then fold to a re-raise. So I think that some of my logic must be off at some point. I decided to call it down. BB calls.

River: 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif

BB checks, EP bets, I call, BB folds. Results later.

-Brian

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
I am dealt A K on the Button. EP, MP, LP, CO all limp, I raise. SB folds, BB calls, rest call. I considered just limping here and I probably would have if there had been 1 more limper. 6 to the Flop for 12sb.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd put the first raise with AKo on the button regardless of how many limpers were in front of me. It may not do as well as well multiway as some other hands, but its still a hell of a lot better than the crap your opponents are playing. I'm sure your raise had value in it.

[ QUOTE ]
All check to me and I bet, only MP and CO fold. I heavily considered checking here

[/ QUOTE ]

You should bet that 100% of the time. You cannot afford to give a free card.

[ QUOTE ]
BB checks, EP bets, LP folds, I raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a raise here is correct. Since you have shown aggresiion throughout this hand and he still felt confident enough to bet into you on the turn, I would take a free showdown unless I improved.

[ QUOTE ]
BB calls, EP re-raises. Welp, that plan turned to dogsht. I considered folding it right here

[/ QUOTE ]

It is time to fold, I suspect you were beat by a set of nines or Aces over Jacks/nines.

Stu

[PocketRocketsBF]

You advocate raising the turn and then checking the river (2 big bets) but advise folding if reraised? Those same 2 bets could be used to call down the EP. Doesn't make sense to me especially since there is no read on any of the players.

[slogger]

Preflop: You're hurting yourself if you don't raise.

Flop: Bet here 100% of the time.

Turn: I like the raise for exactly the reasons you mentioned, in addition to the fact that MP could be playing any number of hands you are ahead of (AQd, Axd, etc.) right now. And if you are behind, you have one (maybe 2) Ace(s) and often three Kings that are clean outs (call it 3 outs in case MP's on a set) in a pot laying you better than 15 to 1 after MP 3-bets the turn - more assuming BB's overcall, which is a 99.9% certainty). Combined with the possibility that MP is overplaying one of the hands you're ahead of, this makes calling the 3-bet an easy decision.

River: you need a hell of a read to lay this down. If your A is good one of every 19 times here, the call should be automatic.

[Please note that I was impressed by majorkong's post in the Micro forum and realized that failing to call with decent made hands may be a leak in my own game - so this response is intended not only to reinforce what I think are very sound principles from mk's post, but also to check with the PBs around here to make sure my thinking is correct. I welcome any and all comments and criticisms of my post. /images/graemlins/wink.gif]

[blackaces13]

But a raise is always better than 2 calls because it a) gets you information, b) gives you a chance to get the bettor to fold right then and there.

[Ed Miller]

You played fine on every street. What's to hate?

You have to call down. Again, no big laydowns in big pots. It looks like the nine improved your opponent when he 3-bets you on the turn. A9 or 99, I'd guess. You have six outs to beat A9 in a big pot. You can't fold for one more bet.

[Stu Pidasso]

Raising the turn is the superior play because.

A)more likely to drive the BB out. Increasing your chance to win this pot.

B)Raising the turn may allow you to collect an extra bet those times when the river card improves your hand enough to warrant betting it again.

C)The EP player can only re-raise you if hes is extremely strong. Hes saying, "I don't think you have AA and I can beat AK" When he reraises you can safely fold.

Stu

[Eihli]

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
You can't fold for one more bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its At Least two big bets to show it down.

Stu

[PocketRocketsBF]

The raise isn't a terrible play as long as you are willing to call a re-raise. If you aren't then you shouldn't be raising here. Since there is no read on the opponents, IMO there is no way you can throw away top-pair top-kicker. The opponent could be an overly-aggressive player with a flush draw or an A-Q. Even if the re-raise is from a two pair hand you have lots of outs to beat this hand.

My point was this: if you are going to fold to a re-raise then I would just call down the EP.

[Ed Miller]

Its At Least two big bets to show it down.

Yes, but he simply has to call on the turn. The pot is too big, and he could have six outs (or be ahead).

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
The raise isn't a terrible play as long as you are willing to call a re-raise. If you aren't then you shouldn't be raising here

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think its correct to raise here unless your willing to fold to a reraise. You're raising for other reasons than information, but its wrong not to use that information when you get it.

[ QUOTE ]
The opponent could be an overly-aggressive player with a flush draw or an A-Q.

[/ QUOTE ]

Remember, you have two opponents in this hand. The best case senario is that one is overplaying his hand, and the other is on a draw(let us hope it does not hit).

[ QUOTE ]
Even if the re-raise is from a two pair hand you have lots of outs to beat this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

You may have 0 outs.

Stu

[Clarkmeister]

"I'd put the first raise with AKo on the button regardless of how many limpers were in front of me."

Cool, we agree. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

"It may not do as well as well multiway as some other hands..."

Its not the multiway monster that AA is, but its still better multiway than most hands.

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, but he simply has to call on the turn. The pot is too big, and he could have six outs (or be ahead).

[/ QUOTE ]

If he calls the turn, he should show it down because of the size of the pot. When our hero gets re-raised on the turn he has to think its going to cost him 2 big bets to finish this hand.

Its true he could be ahead, and its also true that he may be drawing dead. The truth probably lies somewhere in between.

Our hero has to put a read on the situation and make the best possible decision. Is he ahead? If he is behind does he have 6 outs? If hes feels hes behind and has at 6 outs he should definately call. If he feels hes behind and only has 4 outs he should fold. If his reads are good he will make the right decision most of the time and thus make money. If his reads are wrong, its going to have a negative impact on his bankroll. I read the situation has our hero is behind and does not have enough outs to justify a call.

Stu

[shemp]

3 things:

1. In time you'll identify who you should just call the turn against, in the meantime raise. Also, in time, you will learn a player or two to fold the river against if you don't improve (ie, board pairing or hitting a K).

2. The fact that there is a two flush and a straight draw have a lot to do with why I like the turn raise in a crowd.

3. I don't like the check behind plan on the river. I'm betting one pair if checked to on a benign looking river there if the turn went like I hoped. I suspect it is worth pennies +/-, but there's some meta value.

[PocketRocketsBF]

You'll get run over against aggressive players if you employ your style of play. As I said before, if you are going to fold to a raise here, you'd be better off just calling down the EP. I still haven't heard any good reasons why this isn't the case.

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
You'll get run over against aggressive players if you employ your style of play

[/ QUOTE ]

Against a maniac or tricky player, you would have to play the hand differently. However, I think you're making a mistake assuming every unknown player is aggressive or tricky. The vast majority of players who three bet you on the turn have the goods and at best all you have is 6 severely tainted outs.

Stu

[me454555]

Looks like you played it fine to me. You have the K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif so even if the flush draw hits on the turn you still have outs. I like the turn reraise for the same reasons you stated. Gotta call down the river.

[bernie]

im leaning with stu a little. read-wise.

the problem is no prior read on the turn bettor. the price of information that will help with better reads later on.

typically, most will play AJ quicker. even A4. the turn he could be afraid of it being checked, after seeing his own hand, and decides to bet it. some just dont checkraise. the raise is fine. but the 3 bet coming back...

many will wait to the turn with sets. 4s or spiked 9s. jacks you may have heard from preflop. not even considering aces since that is remote but doesnt matter since any set you're drawing dead to anyway. but it could also be a turned 2 pair. the 9 helped him if it did. J9s? A9s or a set.

since most will slow down after being raised on the turn by someone whos shown power the whole way and wont 3 bet 2 pair, it could be 4s or 9s. but again, you have no prior knowledge of the player so he could have 2 pair. hell, he could be overplaying top pair, but that may be a stretch. you dont know how he plays.

my curiosity may get the best of me and i may call for info fully expecting to see a set. 4s or 9s. if he has A9 or J9, then a call would prove to be right. in hindsight of course. after all, it's a ridculously easy call if you knew he had A9 or J9. but you'll also have the added benefit of knowing his turn 3 bet standards better. figure the BB on the draw and wont call if he misses. id like to make this showdown so i will have a better read on the player next time. then i wont have to make as tough a decision. a 16-1 call on a possible 6/7-1 draw is a good enough overlay if im drawing dead for me to call this here.

farther into the session, this should be a much easier hand to play.

b

[anatta]

I count that this pot will have 19 BB in if you call down on the turn. It will cost you 2 BB to do so. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think this means you have to win over 10.5 percent of the time to make calling down correct.

I guess you are ahead here 5% of the time and you win if you are ahead on the turn 4%. Your outs average out to 3. A three outter is 6%.

Fold or call down, it seems quite close to me.

[Brian]

Hi everyone,

I guess I didn't play it as bad as I thought I did. The EP player had J /images/graemlins/heart.gif J /images/graemlins/spade.gif, and it left a bad taste in my mouth putting in 4 more big bets when I was drawing dead.

-Brian

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

[ropey]

[ QUOTE ]
It looks like the nine improved your opponent when he 3-bets you on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]
And what does the first bet mean??

I have got to take this player for at least two pair with the first bet.

-ropey

[PocketRocketsBF]

And I think you are making the mistake of thinking that most of the time that a 3 bet here on a low limit table from an unknown opponent means your high pair is beaten.

I still haven't heard a reason why a call down isn't a better option if you are going to fold to a re-raise.

[Jim Easton]

[ QUOTE ]
I considered just limping here

[/ QUOTE ]

Raise, don't consider limping.

[ QUOTE ]
I probably would have if there had been 1 more limper.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, still raise with 1 more limper.

[ QUOTE ]
A /images/graemlins/heart.gif J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif . . . I heavily considered checking here

[/ QUOTE ]

An ace, 2 broadway cards, 2 diamonds. This flop could give lots of players a reason to play, don't consider checking this one.

[ QUOTE ]
I considered folding it right here, and I think that may have been the best play

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you need to call here. I've seen enough wacky things at Party 3/6 that I'm not folding TPTK here. I've seen players that will play ace-rag or two diamonds this way. I don't really like your chances of winning, but the pot is too big to fold right here.

[Jim Easton]

[ QUOTE ]
The EP player had J /images/graemlins/heart.gif J /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

At least you get some good notes. He limps with JJ in early position, calls a raise, checks and calls a flopped set with an ace-high drawish board, bets the turn with a flopped set. How do you play JJ to take more from him than he did from you when the situation is reversed?

[Brian]

Hey Jim,

I was discussing the hand with MK and told him that I think my opponent extracted the minimum from everyone else and the maximum from me the way he played it.

-Brian

[BottlesOf]

I like the way you played it, and would've played it the same way. I don't think you can consider limping or checking the flop.

[ropey]

Yet another hand where I am in the minority about how the hand should be played...and am baffled how anyone can see it any differently.

My biggest problem with this hand is the raise on the turn...it seems to me the only thing you are accompishing with this raise is putting more bets into a pot that you are clearly behind in. Why raise?

Charging the Draw

I suppose you could consider this a legitimate reason for raising. And lucky for you, you are not only charging one draw, you are charging two draws. Problem is, you are one of the two players who is drawing. You are charging yourself an extra bet, while risking a third bet (to a reraise) and are clearly behind in the hand.

Perhaps the biggest issue of this hand is not the raise itself, rather the hand that you believe you are up against. I have read a number of times throughout this thread that 'there is a chance that you have the best hand'...to this I say, yes, of course, there is always a chance (which I would estimate to be less than 1%).

Why does it take a 3-bet before you begin to realize you are probably behind. Does betting back into a raise mean nothing to you? The way your opponent played this hand should give you great insight to what he is holding, without raising the turn...and I don't know how to see it any other way. Would he check the flop with a lone ace yet bet the turn? I doubt it. Would he check the flop with a four flush yet bet the turn? Probably not. It appeared the 9 improved his hand, which leads me to believe he has J 9 at a very minimum. Lest we forget about the possible A 9 which you are drawing dead to, or a set which you are drawings extremely thin to beat. The ace of diamonds might not even be a good out. Best case scenario, he has two pair...can you beat two pair. No. So why raise?

So, you raise to get a free showdown...an interesting thought. I certainly understand the concept of raising for a free showdown, and betting when you improve your hand. The problem is, as you discovered, when the player actually has a hand (which by the way he is representing). He may check his two pair (which once again is the minimum)...but a good percentage of the time you will get 3-bet here. Why risk it?

You can raise and get to the showdown in two bets (if your lucky)...or you can simply call two bets (to an obvious bigger hand) for the same price. I'd prefer the latter.

Raising here is foolish. You are making it very expensive on yourself to get to the showdown when you can just call for the same price.

-ropey

[J.R.]

Raising here is foolish. You are making it very expensive on yourself to get to the showdown when you can just call for the same price.

If you sure you are beat when led into on the turn, why would you call the river without improvement? I generally agree with your sentiments, although I know opponents (few of them) against whom the turn bet does not mean I am behind. I think the turn and river get overplayed too often in posts I read, but that's just my opinion.

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
I still haven't heard a reason why a call down isn't a better option if you are going to fold to a re-raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Going into a call down shell is weak play in this situation because:

a) You maximize the chance you will lose this hand by giving the BB a cheap ride to the river.
b) The defensive shell line of play only allows you to win the minimum when you are ahead or out draw to a win, where as raising the turn gives you an opportunity to extract an extra bet.
c)Although you are on the button, your position does not guarantee you will be closing the action on this hand. Even if you just call the turn and river, you may still end up facing multiple bets on each street.

Stu

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold or call down, it seems quite close to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is certainly no gaurantee that it is only going to cost you two more bets to show this hand down when you are confronted with the turn three bet. When the BB calls two cold, you have to be concerned that you will not be closing the action in this hand.

Stu

[ropey]

[ QUOTE ]
If you sure you are beat when led into on the turn, why would you call the river without improvement?

[/ QUOTE ]
This is a good point, one which I agree with. Folding is perhaps the best option...but even I find it difficult to release this holding for one more bet.

If you decide to continue this hand, there is only one reasonable way to play it, and that is to call it down. One thing is for certain, and that is raising is absolutely the worst way to play this hand.

-ropey

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
If you decide to continue this hand, there is only one reasonable way to play it, and that is to call it down. One thing is for certain, and that is raising is absolutely the worst way to play this hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

raising is the worst play if you will not fold to a reraise. if you are willing to fold to a reraise then calling it down is the worst play because it maximizes your the chance you will be outdrawn and lose the pot. You have to remember that when you are faced with the turn bet, this hand is still multiway with a coordinated board.

Stu

[wizard_1974]

I assume you lost, but I would have played it exactly the same way.

Given my showing online tonight, I don't think you want me agreeing with how you played. I could give a few examples that would make any possible mistakes you made here laughable.

[wizard_1974]

Oh well, you lost this one. I think he could have easily played AQ, AJ, or A10 this way so I don't think your raise is a big mistake. (or Ax or a bluff, I have seen stranger things)

With the pot is large as it was, I think you had to call down to the river here. Therefore, the most you lost was one BB. The raise obviously was not good here after seeing the results, but I think you would get paid off enough by a lower kicker to make it a marginal mistake at worst.

[citanul]

Don't know what I can add that hasn't been said, but there might be something:

As has been said, You can't limp along preflop here. It's been beaten to death in the past in this forum. Even if you're on the button and it's 7 limpers to you, you're raising. I'm not sure about what discussion decided you from the SB or the BB, but I think it was raise from there too. I'm pretty sure that if UTG raises and everyone calls to you, you're probably re-raising correctly there as well.

Even more than you can't limp preflop, you can't check the flop. Preflop, you're letting people in with who-knows-what if you limp without charging extra. Here, you'd be letting people in for FREE who have bottom pair bad kicker, or some other crap. Why let them draw to beat you for free? You might not a vast majority of the hands that you bet here, but you will make money on the play in the long run.

I guess the turn decision is the only one that's really interesting at all. At this point, the Jacks have been played terribly, (btw, re: he extracted the max from you, I don't think so, I think if he raises preflop, you 3 bet, he calls, he could even proceed exactly like this after that, and you'd have lost one more small bet, and that's just the minimum.) You raise when bet into having not met any resistance yet, with a good hand, and get re-raised. With no read here, you can't fold TPTK to a re-raise or you'll be eating feces all day. There's a lot of hands that the other guy could play this way if he's playing Jacks this strangely, or if he's just say, some random yahoo at the low limit tables, and very few of them are you drawing dead against.

I think I'd from time to time probably make the same play with 2 random large diamonds, say QT, and if I'd somehow got to the turn in this manner with AQ, AT or A9 of diamonds, I'd probably play it similarly on the turn to your opponent, but I'd definitely put in 3 bets with any Axd hand at this point, I think.

Anyway, this got a little rambly, and I got a little lost in what I was trying to say, but I think that you came alot closer to playing this hand fine than you give yourself credit for, even though you didn't want to.

citanul

[aamitch10]

[ QUOTE ]
raising is the worst play if you will not fold to a reraise. if you are willing to fold to a reraise then calling it down is the worst play because it maximizes your the chance you will be outdrawn and lose the pot. You have to remember that when you are faced with the turn bet, this hand is still multiway with a coordinated board.


[/ QUOTE ] This sounds like horrible advice, and honestly doesn't make sense. I think what you have to rembemer is that you are drawing as well. In my opinion you are obviously already behind, and need to improve to win. Calling may allow a draw in, but in all likely hood a draw wont fold for the two bets in this situation anyway. I am not advocating letting draws get their cheaply, but face it... You are on a draw yourself.

A common thought on this forum is to raise and fold to a reraise. In my opinion this is horrible advice. Especially in this situation.

CALL IT DOWN!!!

[PocketRocketsBF]

Glad to see I am not the only one who feels this way. I don't buy the argument to raise on the turn to attempt to thin the field (especially when there are only three of you in the hand and the one bet into you).