Axs

[Rico Suave]

Seems fairly typical party table. I do not have a great read on BB, although my first impression is that he plays fairly tight.

Party Poker 2/4 (10 handed)
Rico has 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif and is Button

MP1 limps, CO limps, Rico limps, SB limps, BB raises, MP1 calls, CO calls, Rico calls, SB folds

Flop(9 SB): Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

BB bets, MP1 calls, CO folds, Rico raises, BB calls, MP1 calls

Turn(7 1/2 BB): T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

BB checks, MP1 checks, Rico bets

I was torn on this one on whether I should fold or raise on the flop. While playing the hand, I thought that since I had position, since the pot is of decent size, and since I may have the best hand, I should make a play for it. So I raised the flop, and bet the turn with the intention of folding to a reraise on the turn and planning to check behind if callers remained to the river. Now that I am reviewing this hand, I am wondering if folding the flop might have been the better play.

Axs seems to give me some tough decisions.

--Rico

[biggambler]

This is why Ace suited is dangiuos to play. If the flpo has an ace it it you can get in trouble. If youbet and everyone folds you win a small pot. If someone has a bigger kicker than you can lose a lot bigger pot.

[Rico Suave]

Hey biggambler:

So can I infer from your response that you think I should fold the flop?

--Rico

[Joe Tall]

I think the raise on the flop is fine.

I hope you folded to a C/R on the turn. That's one hell of a scary turn card, in addition, to you being possibly behind already.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[biggambler]

[bunky9590]

hey rico,
fold the flop. The key to playing Axs is to know when to let go and to understand what you are playing it for.

A3s I want a flush or flush draw, wheel or draw to it, (preferably with a pair or flush draw as well) or 2 pair.
Your lone ace (no kicker) is crap with that board. Aces with better kickers stomp you on this hand and anyone drawing to the flush may have just gotten there. If you win this hand it will be one of the few that you do in this situation. More often than not you pay this off.

This is a major leak in players games in general. I like to play it in LP like you did, but I know how to get away from it if I don't like the way things shake down.

[Rico Suave]

Hey Joe:

I did not like that turn card either. But would you still have bet the turn?

--Rico

[Mike Haven]

there is an interesting article called "A Bit of Maths: Playing the Weak Ace" if you click here (http://www.pokerpages.com/articles/archives/samuel17.htm)

[Flashy]

Yes you bet the turn and take a free showdown on the River. You have the button. Use it! If someone check raise you, then fold. Take a free showdown as the only people who are going to call after calling the turn have you beat.

The alternative is to give a free card and call a single bet on the River. It would cost you the same to get to a showdown, but I prefer to stay the aggressor particularily when I have position.

That turn card will scare everyone else just as much as you. You may get someone with a weak ace or a pair to fold with a bet. That improves your chances of winning. You may win the hand right there.

I don't like playing weak Aces simply because only one of my cards has a chance to make top pair. You hit top pair on the flop. The majority of the time, you will have the only Ace.

Folding top pair Aces on the flop for a single bet would seem to me to be a weak play. Playing weak Aces is a big leak, but so is getting pushed too easily off top pair.

I think you played it fine.

[chesspain]

Am I the only one who thinks that Rico should have mucked this PF? When on the button after only two limpers (three including the BB's free play), you don't have anywhere near the implied odds to be trying for the flush draw, and you may well be dominated by an "any ace" limper. It hardly seems worth the effort for the kind of trouble one can find oneself in when you receive an A-high flop with no flush potential.

[Ed Miller]

You don't muck this before the flop, and you don't muck it for one bet on the flop. The pot is too big, and you will often have the best hand.

You guys fold way too much.

[Rico Suave]

Hey Mike:

Interesting data, thanks for the link.

--Rico

[Rico Suave]

The other 2 opponents folded to my turn bet.

From the responses so far I guess there is no real consensus on how I played this one. In general, I think one has to think that top pair with Axs has some value....if not, I do not think one can play it without a ton of limpers (see mike's link). I posted this one b/c I thought perhaps with the pot being raised pf, I overvalued my Top pair no kicker.

Thanks for everyone's input.

--Rico

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
From the responses so far I guess there is no real consensus on how I played this one

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you played it fine. Thank god for no C/R on the turn. Nice hand.

[ QUOTE ]
I think one has to think that top pair with Axs has some value....if not, I do not think one can play it without a ton of limpers (see mike's link).

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't this advice, I'll check out the link, but it sounds iffy to me.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
But would you still have bet the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

How else would you fold to a C/R?

Peace,
Joe Tall

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
You don't muck this before the flop, and you don't muck it for one bet on the flop. The pot is too big, and you will often have the best hand.

You guys fold way too much.

[/ QUOTE ]


Major,

Are you really saying that it is smart poker to limp with A3s on the button after two limpers? If so, is that because:

1. You're on the button
2. You have a chance to make TP when no one else may have an ace, precisely because the pot is shorthanded
3. You have a chance to make a flush
4. Only because of all three of the above
5. Only because of the presence of at least two of the above (please identify).

Whereas I agree with the sentiments you expressed in your other thread in regards to why you believe that most improving players fold too much, I'm more confused about the advice to limp here with what seems like a very mariginal and easily dominated hand.

[Joe Tall]

chesspain,

Did you miss this one?

Below:

Read the replies in this thread, especially major's and Clark's (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=459193&page=1&view=collap sed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1)

Majorkong breaks it down there as Clark adds on too, check it out.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[Ed Miller]

Basically, the bottom line is that you have a decent hand and the button. You make money in hold 'em by outplaying your opponents after the flop, not by playing brilliant poker before the flop. You can't outplay your opponents after the flop if you fold.

A3s is not a great hand. But it's a decent hand... and if I have a decent hand and the button against a soft table, I'm not gonna think twice about playing it.

[CrackerZack]

Its something in the vegas water. This kong dude reminds me more and more of Dynasty.

Oh, and he's right alot.

[Flashy]

Why am I not surprised by those results? Flops miss more people than they hit.

I think there is a concensus that once you are in on the hand, play it to win. You did.

Whether to limp in with Axs is debatable. In a soft game, I certainly want to play that hand.

Well played!

[AceHigh]

[ QUOTE ]
so far I guess there is no real consensus on how I played this one.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you played it well. Textbook example of how to play Axs.

I think this hand shows how Axs plays well with position.

[Lunamondo]

Flops like ATx (instead of Axx) are not necessarily bad for the ace-nokicker. One might also win without making a hand.

While I am not all scared about a bet from the blinds or from the better positions in more shorthanded situations with a flop like Axx.