AK off in EP vs. The button

[Jester999]

.50/$1 NL at PokerStars...I just sat down and am completing my first round at the table so I have a little less than the $100 buy in...I pick up A /images/graemlins/heart.gif K /images/graemlins/club.gif in EP and raise it to $4. Only the button calls. He's a player I've never seen before so I've no read on him at all. He's got $41.85 in front of him. The flop comes:

3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif K /images/graemlins/heart.gif

The pot is about $9. I lead out for $10. He calls. The turn comes:

10 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

I mean he could have AJ. But that seems a bit of a reach. I'm guessing most would raise quickly if they had KQ. He could have 33 but that seems like a long shot and also a hand he might have raised me with considering the texture of the board. My guess is the diamond draw is most likely with a possible straight draw also. Maybe a KJ of diamonds.

Where do you go from here? And why?

[tewall]

Based on the amount he has left, it would only be correct for you to check/fold if he had a better than 2-1 chance of being ahead of you. Since there's no way that's the case here, pot it (setting him all-in) and hope for the best.

[mauisupaman]

Jester,
I like raising more here PF. If there are other guys with a stack as big as you then you're offering them implied odds. But anyway, flop bet looks good. Turn hits and there is what $28 in the pot and he's got about that left. So, a pot bet by you is offering him 2:1. If he's drawing to /images/graemlins/diamond.gif's it's a bad call by him. And if he's got KJ/images/graemlins/diamond.gif I think this is about a break even call.

If he had $100 in front of him, called your raise with 3's, and got you to go all in then I'd be salty that I didn't raise more PF. But he's only got like 30% of your stack size left, so I wouldn't mind puting him all in this time.

[JohnG]

The preflop raise created your problem.

[Jester999]

Thanks for the insightful replies.

I made a bad bet on the turn and got called. The river was an Ace giving any Jack a straight. I checked the river and he bet what he had left (which wasn't much) and I called to look him up. He had QJ off. I made notes and hopefully will see him again.

About my preflop raise....

I have a standard preflop raise for any big hand I like and then if I've been playing with the same people for a while I'll begin to change it up...either the amount or the hands. I'm always looking for the tolerance of what the game will take. By that I mean, if your preflop raise is too big then nobody but giant hands will call you and if it's too small then you'll get too much action. Does that make sense?

How go you guys decide your preflop raise?

In any case, beginning at the turn is where the great players make their money. That's why my first two posts have stopped there.

[JohnG]

There was nothing wrong with the amount you raised, once you raised. Raising with this hand, in this situation, on this depth of money, is what caused your problem.

[Jester999]

[ QUOTE ]
Raising with this hand, in this situation, on this depth of money, is what caused your problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm open. Why?

[JohnG]

The size of future bets/depth of money, the nature of the hand you are building, and your position.

Ever hear the concept that big unsuited cards go down in value at no-limit compared to limit? Well, opening in early position with AKo and AQo is one part of the game that is affected by this.

It's in your power to decide whether to play a big or small pot. Limping allows you to keep it small, and when a big pot is then to be played, you will be the one making that decision on your terms.

Do you really want to create a big pot preflop when out of position and building top pair? Raising can create awkward and tough big pot situations for you, that you would rather not have been in. Did you enjoy the situation you created in your example? Solve the problem at it's source.

[Guy McSucker]

Hi John,

I would have thought that the very fact that he has a hand that is building top pair should mean he wants to get the pot larger to begin with, so that he can get the money in early while his pair is more likely to be good.

A drawing hand likes to play on all streets. In particular it likes the big money to go in after it hits. A made hand on the flop, like one pair, prefers short money and plays best if it all goes in in two bets.

With deep money, AK can be a nightmare. Here the money is about middling, not super short, not too deep. By raising preflop, he effectively shortens the stacks so that the money can go in more readily. Isn't that a good thing?

Am I barking up the wrong tree?

Guy.

[WalleyeJason]

I would have moved all in after the flop.

There is a flush draw and a straight draw...Mak'em pay for it. I'd rather take the pot down here.

If he is holding onto KQ, then at least you put him to a decision.

You did raise preflop, and he could be thinking you have a set, but I doubt he lays it down.

I think you will have the best hand most of the time.


Atleast you have 7 outs to improve.

[Jester999]

John,

Thanks for taking time to reply.

[ QUOTE ]
Ever hear the concept that big unsuited cards go down in value at no-limit compared to limit?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. I also know the one about AK playing better against a smaller field. In this case I got it heads up. Yes, I was out of position which makes the turn uncomfortable, but I still don't like limping here. If I played in a regular live game with the same people, I'd do it on occasion to vary my play. But with the transient nature of the online game, I'm probably going to raise with it almost every time. If multiple people stay to see the flop then I'm not very happy and can get away from the hand easily. While I understand what you're saying, I simply don't think limping is the answer.

[JohnG]

Ok. Guess I'm not going to convince anyone.

All I will say is that when you raise preflop, if you do not take the pot on the flop, then you're in a very poor spot. Out on a limb without a clue, and little if any wiggle room remaining. That's a big profit making situation? Rather you than me. It's free money for the guy in position.

I'd be interested what results people with tracker software show with these hands when open raising from early position at a full table. They are not big money makers normally, and more likely to be big money losers if all the money goes in post flop. I would guess they'd do better limping.

I recommend you try it for a while.

[JohnG]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes. I also know the one about AK playing better against a smaller field.

[/ QUOTE ]


More a limit thing I would think.


[ QUOTE ]
In this case I got it heads up.

[/ QUOTE ]


And the guy with position has the advantage, and the most profitable situation, regardless of his hand.


[ QUOTE ]
If multiple people stay to see the flop then I'm not very happy and can get away from the hand easily.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can do that if you limp also, having invested even less.

What do you achieve by raising and having everyone fold? What do you achieve by raising and having only 1 or 2 callers? All I can see is that you either win an insignificant amount preflop when they all fold, or you bring your whole stack into range, and create potential tough decisions for that stack later in the hand.

I can see how we can lose big pots out of position with these hands. I can also imagine people playing it for a loss in the long run. But can you tell me how we can win big pots with this hand out of position?

If all the money goes in after the flop, when you raised preflop, I'll take the opponents hand.

If you miss the flop after raising preflop, I'll take the opponents hand, regardless of what it is.

Where's your profit going to come from when you raise preflop here?

[Paul2432]

John, I agree with you. I normally limp with AK in early position.

I think by raising you nearly commit yourself to aggressive play throughout the hand. If you miss you are forced to bet to try and win the pot by representing a big pair. If you flop top pair, you have nearly committed your stack (assuming typical on-line stack sizes). This is exactly the way to win small pots and lose big pots. I don't think you will win enough small pots to make up for the big pots you lose.

On the other hand, if you limp, you may often find your self getting paid off by all kinds of ridiculous hands. I've limped with AK and taken the stack of players holding middle pair. Players who undoubtedly would have folded pre-flop had I raised.

The bottom line is that by raising you get all the hands you dominate like KJ or AQ to fold. These hands are what make AK profitable, don't make them play correctly.

Paul

[Guy McSucker]

Good posts, John. Thank you for elaborating on your thoughts here.

When I posted in this thread, I was thinking a little incorrectly: I was swayed by the fact that the main opponent in the hand had only $40 or so.

I still think, with a shortish stack of 40BB, you do well to raise AK preflop. The stack is short enough that you avoid many of the difficulties later in the hand that you refer to: if you get a caller or two, you will be all-in after only one or two pot-size bets. You're not offering much in the way of implied odds for drawing hands postflop, or even for worse starting hands preflop.
There won't be many tough decisions because there won't be enough money around to think too hard about.

With bigger stacks, though, I am sure you are right. I'll try it...

Guy.

[scrub]

I think the play of your opponents is a huge component to playing AKo from EP that has been overlooked in this discussion.

There are a lot of online tables [not at party...] that play tight weak enough that raising preflop and then potting the flop if called shows a profit. I don't have pokertracker data, but I have a general sense that at "tight" tables, where I don't expect to get a tremendous amount of action from other top pair hands anyway, this aggressive approach is profitable. This is mostly at tables where "nutpeddler" type players are willing to call preflop raises with strange hands (low pairs, bad SCs, etc.) trying to catch a raising hand for its stack. As long as these players are capable of letting these hands go when they don't hit the flop hard, I find that I take a lot of pots from them on the flop when I miss...

I'm not a big fan of raising it when there are players behind me who will put me to tough decisions later in the hand. Strong, aggressive players AND calling stations both fall into this category.

scrub

[Zag]

I think that you should be a little hesitant letting JohnG convince you, though he does tell half the story correctly.

I will agree that, right in the neighborhood of 100 BB's, AK plays poorly out of position. However, Jester's primary opponent had only 42 BB's, and he doesn't say how much the rest of the table has. If no one else at the table has more than 50 BB's you can play your AK as if that is exactly what you have. (At 50 BB's, you want to play AK strongly, try to get it heads up preflop, then get all in on a favorable flop.)

Let's assume that there were others on the table that have Jester covered, so what does he want to do with that AK? Limping is almost NEVER the answer. If there is a VERY aggressive player in late position who likes to raise after limping with a lot of bad hands, then I would advocate a limp followed by a big reraise. But this is the only situation where I would limp.

In a normal circumstance, what good is limping going to do? Two things might happen: 1) People will limp behind you, and once again you will not know what to do on any flop that isn't a monster. or 2) Someone will make a raise behind you and you will either lay it down or you will find yourself calling a preflop raiser out of position. And, again, you will not know what to do on a favorable flop.

The right answer with AK in early position is either to play it strongly preflop (committing yourself to playing it strongly on a favorable flop -- you should have good control of the table to do this), or else just pitch it and move on to the next hand. Tell yourself that it was just 72, if that makes you feel better about pitching it. 72 has just as much chance of flopping a full house as AK does, so if that's what you need to see on the flop to have confidence to play on, you might as well limp with the crap as with AK.

So, I agree with JohnG that raising with AK preflop is often a bad idea in the 100 BB's zone for stack size. But limping with it is worse. If you can't play it strongly, don't play it at all.

[Jester999]

[ QUOTE ]
I recommend you try it for a while.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, I will. I've got no problem with trying something that sounds both logical and reasonable. But it took you 2 or 3 posts before you decided to actually join the discussion rather than just dropping an ominous line or two of haunting condescension. I'm here to learn and make no bones about it. I've been playing NL for about 6 months now moving up steadily. I've got no urge to be mediocre at anything I do so I really do appreciate people sharing knowledge. Before this thead mercifully passes into oblivion I do have a couple of follow ups:

1)Okay, I limp and get six callers. Flop comes the same. Do you lead at the pot or no? Let's say I do and overbet the pot ($7) as I'm wont to do in this situation and I get two callers. The pot is now the same size. Where to go from here after the turn? I realize position is big in general and ENORMOUS in big bet poker, but poor position is simply poor position. It's awkward unless you have the stone cold nuts.

2) You seem like a fairly experienced player and I actually thought about starting this as a thread unto itself, but I am curious. Where do you make most of your money in big bet?

Thanks again for the time.

[Jon Matthews]

I don't think you're up against KdJd, even the button wouldn't enter a raised pot with that would he?

If you're up against a diamond draw it would more likely be Adxd IMO since it's the button.

I think checking is the option here. Putting him all in will only have him calling if you're beat, you'll have a better chance of taking it on the river if he checks behind.

Jon

[JohnG]

[ QUOTE ]
. I still think, with a shortish stack of 40BB, you do well to raise AK preflop. The stack is short enough that you avoid many of the difficulties later in the hand that you refer to: if you get a caller or two, you will be all-in after only one or two pot-size bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem I see with this is that it can create plenty of situations where we can get pot stuck whilst knowing we are most probably in bad shape. Personally I think 40X BB stacks is an awful ratio for the raise.


[ QUOTE ]
You're not offering much in the way of implied odds for drawing hands postflop, or even for worse starting hands preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

We are offering enough, assuming we make a normal sized raise, (and I don't like making a bigger one).


[ QUOTE ]
There won't be many tough decisions because there won't be enough money around to think too hard about.

[/ QUOTE ]

See the pot stuck comment.

Try limping on these shorter ratios too. Anything over 20X BB stacks. And if it get's raised behind you, you have plenty of options. Calling, folding, or moving-in are all options depending on exact situation, with stack ratio and opponent being important factors in which one to choose.

For example. You have 25 and limp. It is raised behind you to 4, so it is 3 more to call. You can then move-in or fold in response. If you had 35, then you could call. And when you do call in these spots, it is with intention of playing for all your chips on the flop when you pair. If you had 80, then you can fold if you would not be comfortable playing for all your chips when you pair.etc.

[JohnG]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the play of your opponents is a huge component to playing AKo from EP that has been overlooked in this discussion.

There are a lot of online tables [not at party...] that play tight weak enough that raising preflop and then potting the flop if called shows a profit.

[/ QUOTE ]

If that's the case, I'd suggest raising with other types of hands, for numerous reasons. Under the dynamics you suggest, I would still limp with Ako or AQo, but maybe raise with 79s or 55, for example.

[JohnG]

[ QUOTE ]
I think that you should be a little hesitant letting JohnG convince you, though he does tell half the story correctly.

I will agree that, right in the neighborhood of 100 BB's, AK plays poorly out of position. However, Jester's primary opponent had only 42 BB's, and he doesn't say how much the rest of the table has. If no one else at the table has more than 50 BB's you can play your AK as if that is exactly what you have. (At 50 BB's, you want to play AK strongly, try to get it heads up preflop, then get all in on a favorable flop.)

[/ QUOTE ]

You raise in early position, an ace comes on the flop, and now I have a favourable flop, all I've got to do is hope my opponent is kind enough to put all their 50X BB chip stack in with a worse hand than AQo or AKo? What hand do they give us in order for them to do this?


[ QUOTE ]
In a normal circumstance, what good is limping going to do? Two things might happen: 1) People will limp behind you, and once again you will not know what to do on any flop that isn't a monster.

[/ QUOTE ]

But the pot is smaller. We are less inclined to bet the flop compared to if we had raised. Our stack is less at risk. We have wiggle room.


[ QUOTE ]
or 2) Someone will make a raise behind you and you will either lay it down or you will find yourself calling a preflop raiser out of position. And, again, you will not know what to do on a favorable flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I answered this in the above post.


[ QUOTE ]
So, I agree with JohnG that raising with AK preflop is often a bad idea in the 100 BB's zone for stack size. But limping with it is worse. If you can't play it strongly, don't play it at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Limping doesn't mean you can't play it strongly. It's often the best way to double through with it.

[Zag]

So, you have 50 BB's exactly, you limp in EP with your As Kh, and there are three limpers behind, plus the blinds. Now the flop comes Ah 8d 7d and the blinds check to you, what are you going to do?

I assume you bet out, probably a small overbet of 6 or 7 BB's. (If you can't bet this flop, you should have saved your preflop money.) Now you get called by two people. Where are you? I sure don't know, and neither do you.

On the turn, any diamond or any of QJT9874 all scare you -- that's over half the deck. You are out of position and any additional bet you make puts you pot-committed.

Explain to me again how limping with AK did you any good? Are you only hoping for a 2 pair or better on the flop? The hope of doubling up for only 50 BB's is not enough implied odds to be worth the preflop call, if you need a hand this good to play on. At 100 BB's, you are getting close, but I think still you are too low.

[JohnG]

[ QUOTE ]
Okay, I will. I've got no problem with trying something that sounds both logical and reasonable. But it took you 2 or 3 posts before you decided to actually join the discussion rather than just dropping an ominous line or two of haunting condescension.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry about that. I wanted to point you in the right direction, but generally, I don't want to get drawn into detailed discussions where I then feel obliged to keep replying. I may not have time to do so, and don't like letting people down. Most people don't listen anyway. They need to experience it for themselves before they accept something, so it's a waste of my time to go into detail. I had also discussed the same thing in the previous few days on other threads, so did not want to repeat myself.


[ QUOTE ]
1)Okay, I limp and get six callers. Flop comes the same. Do you lead at the pot or no?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, depending on the exact stack ratios, once it is limped around and you see the flop with 6 other players, you need to realise that you do not normally want to get involved in a huge pot. Your aim is to win or lose a small to decent sized pot. I'd be cautious in this situation. It would be unlikely that my whole stack goes in by the river, but sometimes I may have to do so depending on the exact situation, including stack sizes.

It seems you've picked a pretty extreme situation for an example compared to what we will normally face if we limp. I would say it would be the equivalent of raising preflop and having about 4 callers. Not the norm. In which case I know I'd rather face 6 opponents after limping than 4 after raising.

Personally, I don't see the point of discussing extreme situations until somebody has gone away and tried the basic advice first. I think people want to know too much detailed understanding before they jump in and get some experience. The basic advice is enough. Detail and further discussion can come later. Try it, then after doing and thinking about this subject on your own for a while, post further questions on the forum relating to specific examples. Experience then discuss further, rather than trying to fully understand before jumping in. That's the best way to learn and understand in my eyes.

[ QUOTE ]
You seem like a fairly experienced player and I actually thought about starting this as a thread unto itself, but I am curious. Where do you make most of your money in big bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I am extremely rusty at the moment. I haven't played that much over the last 12 months or so. I am just getting back into it and am trying to clear out the fuzzyness in my thinking, which is why I have been reading and posting these past few weeks.

I can think of lots of things to say in reply to your question, but none that are easy to drag from my fuzzy thoughts and put into words. As it's tough to put anything that comes to mind into words, I will stick with one simple one, a general thought process that willl guide you.

This is gonna sound dumb, but I'll say it anyway. The reason I will say it is that a lot of limit players adopt the same limit mentality when taking up big-bet, and you may be one of them. Namely, winning a little bit here and a little bit there. Big bet is not like that.

Assuming deep money, most of the money in big bet comes from aiming to win big pots. That means getting your opponents to make big mistakes post flop that double you through, rather than allowing them to play correctly. Which means preflop hand selection and manipulating of situations with this in mind. What those hand selections and manipulations are depend on the table dynamics. This overall aim has the side benefit of presenting lots of other smaller profitable situations.

The ability to win big pots on deep money is why medium pairs and suited aces are more valuable at bigbet compared to limit, and why big unsuited cards are less valuable at big bet compared to limit.

An example of manipulation would be having 79s in the cut-off and 2 weak-tight limpers to you with deep money. You make a pot size raise. This has various benefits. To win a big pot you are going to have to trick these players out of their stack. It hopefully gets you position if you see the flop. You also have the other benefits of winning smaller pots quite often preflop when they fold, or winning often post flop when you are called and miss. Lots of small profitable possibilities with a small chance of winning a huge pot. You are steal-raising with a hand that will help you outplay your opponents post flop. You will usually either win it preflop, win it post flop, or maybe hit a disguised hand and double through them. All due to your preflop manipulation based on the dynamics and your hand.

Basically the money making strategies change depending on the dynamics at the table. Each table characteristic will have a money making strategy for you to identify. Usually the small profitable situations will flow from an overall big pot winning strategy for whatever table dynamics you face.

How does AKo in early position fit with this? Well, on stacks of 20-60X BB, open limping in early position is both cautious and bold with AKo. I am actually aiming to double through on these ratios when I limp here, whilst at the same time allowing myself to avoid lots of potentially bad situations later in the hand had I raised. Once the pot goes unraised preflop, then I am cautious and try to win a small-medium pot. If I raise instead preflop, sure, I will sometimes double through, but I will also lose a lot of money in tough post flop situations which I would have avoided if I limped. Also, when I raise, I will sometimes have to fold preflop when I may have doubled through or got away cheap had I limped instead.

On deeper money than 20-to-60BB, my preflop limp is much more motivated by caution and a desire to win or lose a small-medium sized pot. Winning a big pot is not a usual consideration. If it's raised behind me preflop, I probably fold more often than not. I only call the raise if I am comfortable playing for all my chips on the flop if I pair up. So I only call the raise on 60XBB and larger stacks if I am prepared to play a big pot when I hit my hand.

[JohnG]

Related to the above, I've just found some old notes from a while ago pointing out my money making strategy for a particular table. It can probably be improved upon, and it's pretty rough, but it at least illustrates what I am talking about with regards working out where the main money will come from in a particular game. These were for the paradise games.

Character of games:

Tight preflop. Weak tight post flop. Big preflop mistake is a lot play dominated hands to raises. Post flop mistake is a lot cannot lay down top pair when obviously buried. Other mistake is bet size showing fear.

Pretty straight, unimaginative. Can outplay postflop.

Seems like they have read limit books and apply it to the big-bet.

Strategy with these character games:

Steal raise - hands that rate to be best or help outplay postflop. Can also do it with real trash sometimes in situations where it looks like we have a good chance to take it down preflop or on flop.

Can raise weak tight limpers with hands that help outplay postflop. Can win preflop. Can win without hitting hand post flop, and if hit, have a lot of disguise.

Need to trick to double through, or make a decent hand and keep betting v those that can't lay down the pair.

Don't automatically lay down post flop. Look for ways to win pot.

Use position to take pots away by using bluff call or raise.

Take the pots on next street after it is bet small and everyone passively calls along.

Money comes from manipulating betting and opponents, thus winning lots of small pots pre and post flop. Target those that play dominated to raises, or cannot fold top pair. Double through by making a hand v them and betting it. TPTK or better. Also play hands that can flop big once those targeted have limped. Also double through by hitting a disguised hand. Also by playing a certain way in raised pots v certain opponents. Whether to raise preflop with those hands that help outplay depends on situation with regards limpers, depth of money, hand, position.

[JohnG]

You're the 2nd person that has come up with this kind of situation. My question is why do people seem to come up with the worse possible scenario for an example, where we get a gazillion limpers behind us and then hit a pair on the flop? Is this the most likely scenario if we limp? I would say no.

Anyway, is this really worse than raising, getting 2 callers with position, and then either hitting or missing the flop? I would say no. And this scenario is far more common when we raise than the above limping scenario is when we limp.

I don't know whether the following applies to you or not, but it's clear that nothing I say will convince some people, and that is no bad thing. All I say to these people is that they stop talking about every possible scenario and instead jump in and try for themselves. Get their own experience with this limping advice, and then do their own further thinking on the subject. Compare it to their experiences with raising. Think and do. Think some more and do some more. Only after they have more experiance with the advice should they then post more about certain situations that gave difficulty, or try to understand more fully. We could discuss various examples until we're blue in the face, but it's worthless without at least some experience before continuing.

To note: The advice was concerned with limping from early position with insignificant blinds and no ante.

[ QUOTE ]
Explain to me again how limping with AK did you any good?

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess one small example means limping is a bad idea? Regardless of this specific example, as I haven't looked closely, I never said there would be no difficult situatons if you limp. But overall, it is far better than raising. Far better, (so long as the context is understood). I would go as far to say that, in the situations discussed, believing a raise to normally be the best play preflop shows a flaw in a persons bigbet thought process.

[ QUOTE ]
Are you only hoping for a 2 pair or better on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

[ QUOTE ]
The hope of doubling up for only 50 BB's is not enough implied odds to be worth the preflop call, if you need a hand this good to play on.

[/ QUOTE ]

With 50X BBs, doubling up is only a consideration in my thought process if it is raised behind me after I limp. In fact it will be the major factor in deciding whether to call, re-raise all-in, or fold. In a raised pot, I am not calling only to then have to fold if I hit the hand I am most likely building. With AK when I limp-call, that means I am playing for all my chips on the flop if I pair. If I would not be comfortable doing that then I limp-fold to the raise rather than limp-call. BTW, This is much better than me raising preflop initially, but I'll leave that to your imagination and experience to work out why.

If it is limped around and we see an unraised flop, I do not aim to double up. I will be cautious. I will rarely put all my chips in post flop in that case, when we started with 50XBB-100XBB stacks, but sometimes I will have to.

Preflop I am deciding whether to play a likely big pot or small pot, and limping also allows me to better control when a big pot is to be played.

[sdplayerb]

I agree with you.
It is easy. at $100 buyin, $1-2.
You raise to $6. If two callers, $15 pot.
You hit it, you are winning $9 (before a rake) or lose your entire stack since no decent player is calling you at this point.

Better off keeping it small and getting away from it or check calling at some point.
Or if there is a preflop raiser, can consider putting him to the test with a reraise representing AA. If he calls, you are almost definitely a coinflip..so you have two ways to win now.

SD

[ALL1N]

I am surprised that the advocation for limping AKo has found no strong resistance.

Putting more money in the pot preflop with AKo is great, as it is money that you will end up winning more than your fair share.

Raising also has the distinct advantage of limiting the field. A reduced field means that a vulnerable hand need be protected less, and so smaller bets can be made, encouraging more money to go into the pot from weaker hands such as worse kickers and lower pairs.

Another pro to raising AKo is that you will be representing an overpair when you follow through unimproved, often stealing the pot from a better hand.

The idea of not being able to get away from the hand when you raise preflop is psychological, and based upon the notion of poor postflop play. I cannot see any validity in this argument.

ALL1N

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
I am surprised that the advocation for limping AKo has found no strong resistance.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK. I think limping early w/ AK is terrible. Actually, I think limping (without the intent to limp re-raise) early in big bet is usually terrible in most games.

I make a standard open raise of 3-5BB (depending on game texture, stacks, etc.) w/ most anything I'm going to play early. AKo. TT. AA. AQs. All the same. This range of hands starts to expand significantly as the money gets deeper. I'll of course raise appropriately more after limpers.

While there are lots of differences between big bet and limit, some things are the same. You still get to make lots of money when you have AK and your opponent has AQ and the flop is Ace-high.

I agree w/ ALLIN that the best solution to avoiding post-flop problems is to work on post-flop play.

Open-raising w/ AKo has plenty of benefits. It's easier for you to narrow the range of likely hands your opponent might have v. just limping. It lets you bet more postflop. It lets you cut their implied odds postflop, so they'll be making errors trying to draw out on you.

I agree that playing one pair in big bet can be tricky. If you're not comfortable playing AK for a raise early or playing TPTK from EP, I imagine it's better to just muck it rather than limping in with it.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
Where do you go from here? And why?

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Bet $42 and put him all-in. Because you very likely have the best hand and might get called incorrectly by flush draws and weaker made hands. But there are a ton of cards you don't like on the river and you're happy to just take it down right here.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
I can see how we can lose big pots out of position with these hands. I can also imagine people playing it for a loss in the long run. But can you tell me how we can win big pots with this hand out of position?

[/ QUOTE ]

By potting it on the flop and turn and getting called by AJ or AQ.

[ QUOTE ]
Where's your profit going to come from when you raise preflop here?

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See my answer above.

[Ulysses]

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I would have moved all in after the flop.

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Betting $50 to win $10 w/ one pair is rarely the right move.

[Ulysses]

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If you miss you are forced to bet to try and win the pot by representing a big pair.

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Who is forcing you to do this?

[ QUOTE ]
If you flop top pair, you have nearly committed your stack (assuming typical on-line stack sizes).

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If I have a stack that will be committed by a 4BB pre-flop raise when I flop TPTK, I'm happy to put it all in.

[ QUOTE ]
On the other hand, if you limp, you may often find your self getting paid off by all kinds of ridiculous hands. I've limped with AK and taken the stack of players holding middle pair. Players who undoubtedly would have folded pre-flop had I raised.

[/ QUOTE ]

This doesn't make any sense to me. A player w/ middle pair gives you their whole stack when the pot is small and there's an Ace on the board. Yet this player would have folded to a small raise pre-flop? I find it much easier to take players' stacks when there's some money in the pot.

[ QUOTE ]
The bottom line is that by raising you get all the hands you dominate like KJ or AQ to fold. These hands are what make AK profitable, don't make them play correctly.


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The bottom line is that by limping you give anyone with reasonable money great odds to bust your TPTK w/ some crappy two pair.

[Ulysses]

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You're not offering much in the way of implied odds for drawing hands postflop, or even for worse starting hands preflop.
There won't be many tough decisions because there won't be enough money around to think too hard about.

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Exactly. And with bigger stacks, as I said in another post, the answer isn't limping pre-flop, it's playing better post-flop.

[JohnG]

Post flop, after making the pot bigger preflop, you can find yourself in tough spots where you usually are correct to call for all your chips due to the pot odds and element of doubt. So playing better post flop has nothing to do with it.

Most of the arguments I see against limping in the context discussed always seem to be based on limit thinking.

Just let people that have been habitually raising try limping and make up their own mind.

Can we let this thread die now, please /images/graemlins/smile.gif