Ho Hum

[Coilean]

Three guys limp to me on the button with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif8/images/graemlins/heart.gif in a decent 15-30 game, so naturally I raise, and everyone with a hand calls me.

J/images/graemlins/club.gif8/images/graemlins/spade.gif6/images/graemlins/heart.gif. The loose passive SB bets (which means a J or better), 3 guys call, I raise, and everyone calls.

7/images/graemlins/heart.gif. Everyone checks.

8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Checks to an EP player (who plays loose passive generally, but throws in the occassional move) who bets, only myself and the SB call. Just another day at the office, right?

[elysium]

hi coil
i don't understand the check on the turn. you have more than enough outs and you're a slightly probable leader. you actually have a turn value bet. just terrible coil. you've been around a while coil, so it's really awful. i can't believe it.

start a refresher course in hfap and top. you need to get back to basics. this happens when you don't rehash and restudy from time to time. i am beginning to notice some very bad plays again.

[Coilean]

Hooboy, you're going to LOVE the other hand I posted! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[andyfox]

But he said the flop bettor has a jack or better. Why bet a pair of 8s into a pair of Js or better? He paid for his free card already, no?

[elysium]

hi andy
remember what dan hanson's theory about the semi-bluff raise for the free-card; dan says, and i agree, that there is no such thing as a semi-bluff raise for a free-card from the button because from the button, if your opponent offers you a free-card, you're not going to accept it.

the raise on the flop is, in essence, being made so that you will be checked to on the turn, at which point you bet. the reason for the bet is three-fold; 1)to win the pot right now; 2) to keep from being bluffed on the river; 3) for a free-showdown on the river. oh, there are other reasons too. in this hand andy it's a value bet. they're calling and giving ev positive odds to the draw for the nuts. the bet also conceals the flush a little if it gets there. a K hi will surely call any raise. andy, it goes on and on.

does that mean that there is no such thing as a raise for a free-card. not according to dan. there actually is a raise for a free-card that isn't widely recognized. when you have a straight suited consecutive on the button or a straight consecutive with A hi three of suit, against this identical field, you should raise and accept the free-card. according to dan that is the only free-card play in hold em.

and, by the way, betting on the turn allows you, instead of the field, to bluff on the river if you miss and are without a pair. personally, i'd like to show-down the 8 pair for free, but the bet on the turn may get a J weak kicker to lay it down on the river; highly unlikely though.

the point is the bet on the turn opens the door of opportunity for you, while accepting the free-card opens that door for others.

if the hand is more than 5 handed, a free-card isn't awful, in my opinion, with non-nut draws. but in 4 or under andy, it's hard to imagine a scenario when accepting the free-card is correct.

[skp]

I can almost guarantee you that Dan Hanson would have taken the free card here. The 7 that came on the turn was not exactly a blank on a J86 rainbow (?) flop where 5 guys have shown an interest in the hand. Besides, Coilean strongly suspects that he is trailing the sb who ain't folding a Jack in this bloated pot.

[Rick Nebiolo]

Coilean wrote:[ QUOTE ]
Three guys limp to me on the button with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif8/images/graemlins/heart.gif in a decent 15-30 game, so naturally I raise, and everyone with a hand calls me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why raise? You generally need at least AT suited in this spot OR the cutoff seat with this hand and lineup (in order to buy the button lacking a button action tell) OR fewer opponnets (one weak or no limpers is ideal) OR two additional opponents (to build a big pot for the times you flop a flush draw, trip eights, or top two pair). Most of the time only one blind calls and you end up paying a double bet with a sub par high card strength hand and four opponents. I don't like to put myself in such a spot.


[ QUOTE ]
J/images/graemlins/club.gif8/images/graemlins/spade.gif6/images/graemlins/heart.gif. The loose passive SB bets (which means a J or better), 3 guys call, I raise, and everyone calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps because he is loose PASSIVE you hope he won't reraise and they all give you a free card on the turn (which you should usually take) this is a good raise. Unfortunately, with five callers you can easily hit something (other than a flush draw) and lose to a straight or another backdoor flush on the river. I take one off cheaply here (had the pot been this big BTF which it wouldn't have had I played it /images/graemlins/grin.gif). Another problem is that if you get reraised from a spot that builds a pot you won't know if you are up against a big draw or big hand and this can create a dilemma later.


[ QUOTE ]
7/images/graemlins/heart.gif. Everyone checks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now it's close between betting and checking and I prefer a bet. If you bet and get three or more calls (indicating you aren't against two pair, a straight, or a set) you are making money on your flush draw in combination with making trips or aces up. If you get fewer calls from better hands you don't lose much given your outs. The additional value of betting is on occasion setting up a river play where you get a better hand to fold (maybe 99) when you don't improve on the river but bet. That is huge.

[ QUOTE ]
8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Checks to an EP player (who plays loose passive generally, but throws in the occassional move) who bets, only myself and the SB call. Just another day at the office, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Now I like the call luring overcalls by the initial checkers (I count about three). A raise doesn't drive out a better hand and gets only one call from the original raiser when he is worse.

Coilean, if this forum had a "Watch List" I'd put you on it but I'm a bit perplexed by your play here.

Regards,

Rick

[Rick Nebiolo]

skp,

All this talk of Dan Hanson makes me realize how much I miss his posts. Anyway, I think even a loose passive player might find this board scary enough to fold J small suited or set up a river fold with J9 or JT on river misses. IMO post above I thought is was close between betting and checking but I like the bet because it looks like it has value and makes the river play easier.

Happy Holidays,

Rick

[andyfox]

I raise here on the button every time. I don't see it as "such a spot." I see it as taking control. If I can eliminate one blind and/or get checked to on the flop, great. Now when Coilean raises the flop again, they all check to him on the turn. I see it as a small price to pay for many proabable advantages.

On the flop, you say "I take one off cheaply here," but by raising isn't Coilean taking two off cheaply, or at least increasing his chances of so doing?

On the turn, I agree it's close between betting and checking. If I thought there was an iota of a chance I could win the pot with a bet, I'd bet; but I understand Coilean's check given that he was sure at least one opponent currently had him beat.

And if you're perplexed by this one, read the one where he 3-bet pre-flop with T-8 and raised the river with, ahem, T-8. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Regards,
Andy

[skp]

But what about getting checkraised if you bet. The 7 is a bad card on the turn when the flop is J86 rainbow. This might be a spot where the "check when you have outs, bet when you don't" concept applies.

[skp]

BTW, a stronger case can be made for betting when you are in early position as now the cost of a mistaken bet is only 1 big bet (as presumably, if you get raised when you bet, that chap whould have bet if you check). But on the button, the cost of a mistaken bet could be two bets (i.e., obviously, I am disregarding what might happen on the river when you improve).

[JimmyV]

I agree intensely with Coilean's play here, although I raise the river because I have the best hand and because I think Jacks might call and worse eights will certainly call and perhaps three-bet.

I'm horrified that anyone would suggest betting with second pair last to act on the turn into a field this large, passive, and apparently loose, and a pot getting this large. This is a textbook example of a free-card play; if the turn hadn't been a heart a case is to be made but I think you're trailing 70% of the time and should take a look at the river and probably call a single bet if you don't improve. There's just no way you buy this pot with a turn bet, and mere overcards to your 8 will call 65% of the time -- so you dislike non-heart K's, Q's, T's, and maybe nines on the river ('anti-outs') equally whether you bet the turn or not. But any river besides those (say) ten cards gives you an easy river call and a good shot at the pot; many heart overcards get you three river bets from up to two other people.

Elysium is off his rocker today. Well played, Coilean.

The preflop raise I think is correct on the button, incorrect perhaps as late as the cutoff. The flop raise is perfect poker!

JimmyV


PS. The concept skp mentions -- 'check with outs, bet without' -- is one I've used far more than anything else I've read in the last eighteen months, and it's served me extremely well (especially in fast-paced online play).

[Rick Nebiolo]

Andy,

I'm playing in games where the raise in back doesn't help you take as much control. I still stand by wanting more or fewer opponents otherwise I like limping behind limpers with this speculative hand (do I sound like Mike Caro here?).

I agree that the flop raise will sometimes allow Coilean to get to the river for one extra small bet so maybe I should be thinking of this more often.

Regarding Coilean's other post, I'd love to read more of the forum but I'm in my underwear, should be at work, need to get in the shower, have a tourmament thread going, and havn't figured out what to get Mom and Dad for Christmas now that Mom said no to my brother Steve's digital camera idea (we were going to chop on it) even after he got them to spend $3600! on an upgraded Dell computer when all they previously used there old computer for was email and simple stuff.

Regards,

Rick

[andyfox]

/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Rick Nebiolo]

skp,

If you get checkraised you at least know to lay down two pair on the river and should make a bigger pot when you make your flush. Of course the position of the checkraise matters, although I don't see players making the checkraise for value with a big draw on the turn.

Regards,

Rick

[Rick Nebiolo]

In the unlikely case anyone above me at the Bike is reading this I gave them a two thirteen hour days this week /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Rick Nebiolo]

skp,

I agree but you can't disregard what may happen on the river when you improve. Drawing to the nuts is huge.

I'll have time for one more post in after my shower and before work. You guys who make money (like Andy who makes money in his sleep) or get paid while posting make my jealous /images/graemlins/grin.gif

~ Rick

PS Now I'm starting to wonder what Coilean thinks of his play.

[elysium]

hi jim
for coil, the check-down means a refresher course. even the good players need a refresher every once in a while. we're not here to tell each other how great we are. for coil, not betting the turn is a huge error.

the reason i mention dan hanson here is because rarely do you find something out there that compliments hfap and top, without stepping on the basics. his free-card theory was pretty cool. but i'm sure if he were posting, i'd have him take the refresher.

[JimmyV]

Any response to the substance of my post? These are not opponents who are ready to fold! Hence the semibluff adds no EV, especially since there are many who AFTER THE TURN IS CHECKED AROUND will blithely bet into you on the river when you make aces up or the nuts and they make top pair or something. You make four big bets often on the river, or an extra one or even two when you snap off thusly-induced river bluffs.

I think you're out of your ta-tas in this thread, Elysium. Which does not preclude your being the genius of the forum.

[skp]

Well, a checkraise does not have to only come from the straight or a guy with a draw.. A guy with two pairs is also going to checkraise beacuse he figures he has Coilean beat and also because he wants to protect his hand. Thus, if I make two pairs or trips on the river, I am going to call. So, I don't think that the ability to release on the river if checkraised on the turn is a reason to bet the turn (but it does constitute another reason to bet the turn for value i.e., you don't have to improve to a flush to make the turn a value bet, you may be quite content with improving to two pairs or trips. Heck, even a Jack will help you overtake 76 or 87 so long as no one else has a Jack).

All that said, I still favour checking the turn although given your viewpoint, I am certainly less sure now as compared to when I made my initial post in this thread.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

I won't spend a lot of time flaming here cuz i would have likely played it similarly. Betting the turn is an option, but one i think you wisely chose to pass on, given that there were too many players still in the pot. Basically I like it. I think you had the winner too, did you raise it?

al

[Coilean]

The EP bettor folded without showing his cards, I showed my trips and the SB folded.

The preflop and flop were pretty straightforward, I thought. Suited aces play very well against loose limpers (especially if no one else has an ace, which could easily be the case here), so a raise should get more money in when I have the best of it, and may make them more readable postflop. Since loose passives shut down pretty quickly, my flop raise should usually buy me a free turn card or get me usable information, while often causing my opponents to misread me for a high pocket pair (besides which I was getting great value with 4 opponents putting in money).

The major point of contention here seems to be my turn check. I certainly understand the appeal of a turn bet, but in this case I don't think it's the best play. Despite elysium's faith in the strength of my pair of 8's, I think there is not much chance I have the SB beat on the turn here; loose passives almost never bet into a large field including a preflop raiser without at least a top pair or a premium draw (and the best draw also just got there). Getting a free showdown would be nice, but I would like a better chance at the best hand before that becomes a compelling factor (at this point, I'm not even planning to call a river bet from the SB). Also, since my hand looks so much like an overpair to my opponents right now, I don't think I gain any useful information when check raised which would allow me to fold a two pair or trips on the river.

By far the most compelling reason to bet the turn here is for value on my draw. With up to 14 outs to aces up or better, I only need 3 callers to get real value on my bet. However, I only have 4 opponents here (a couple of whom will probably bail out with their overcard or gutshot draws), and unless everyone calls with a straight draw, they are also likely holding a few of my outs when they do call. Also, anyone who made a straight or 2 pair (or decided to slowplay a set) is virtually certain to go for a check raise against my "obvious" overpair, which means the times I only have 8-11 outs I will most likely be playing for multiple bets against fewer opponents. Further, since checking here might induce a weak river bet for me to raise those times I do improve, I am not always giving up my turn action by checking. All in all, I think there are more reasons to check the turn here than there are to bet.

On the river, I was going for the overcalls (there were 2 players behind me with hands yet), plain and simple. Since I would expect EP to go for a check raise on the turn if he had a straight, I can still be beaten here, and SB's overcall seemed pretty likely. A raise isn't unreasonable here, but the risk of being both 3 bet by a better hand and losing the overcalls made me decide against it.

[Coilean]

Rick,

I addressed a lot of this in my results post, and I see skp already brought up most of my points. I don't think my preflop raise is a huge +EV play (in fact very few preflop plays that don't involve a high pocket pair are big plays, but I digress /images/graemlins/wink.gif), but I certainly believe you have a positive situation here with a strong multiway hand (and possible the only ace) and the best position. I think we're on the same page with the flop play; I don't go for free card plays that often, as most players are aware enough to 3-bet strong hands when a draw is present on the flop, but the success of this play against loose passives is one of the reasons they make such profitable opponents. The turn is clearly debatable, but I don't think there's much chance I am stealing this pot from the best hand, and am probably going to be check raised too often to get value from a bet that needs almost all of my opponents to flat call with single pair hands for it to be a good one. On the river, I was going for the overcall, as you suspected. As always, your input is greatly appreciated; you've always been near the top of my "Watch List" (as have andy and skp, for that matter) /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

[J_V]

You are a Great White Shark eating the surfers in California. Very well played. If I played 1/10 hands as well I would be wealthy man.

[bobgreen]

Coilean, Ho Hum sure generated some hubbub.

Every one of your reasons for checking the turn and flat calling the river makes perfect sense. I'd play the river that way often and the turn too sometimes. But...

My favorite opponent bets when she thinks she is best and checks whenever she has any doubt. (She should also be about 5' 2", dark and fit.)

My most dreaded opponent pushes me hard, keeps me unsure and makes me pay lots to find out if I win.

Now, obviously you can't just bet and raise when you miss the board and hold some random crap (T8s for example /images/graemlins/smile.gif), but here your heart draw on the turn and your reasonable chance of winning at the river, give you the opportunity to lower your center of gravity and push the lightweights around a little.

In this hand, betting the turn and raising the river seem ev positive but less ev positive than checking the turn and calling the river.

Over the long term however, I believe betting and raising are more ev positive. Having your opponents fear you is priceless.

[Coilean]

I think my opponents fear me because I raise a lot when I think they have weak hands, and bet a lot of weak hands on the river if I think there is much chance it is the best hand. I don't think raising and betting with a probable second best hand against a loose passive who likes to call down is the right spot to get overaggressive in. Somehow, I don't find it that scary when people overplay weak losing hands against me, I just start calling them down more often; it's a lot scarier if they pound me over the head with weak hands that beat me.

[bobgreen]

Coilean, thanks for responding.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think raising and betting with a probable second best hand against a loose passive who likes to call down is the right spot to get overaggressive in.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree wholeheartedly and his liking to call down argues against your turn raise.

[ QUOTE ]
it's a lot scarier if they pound me over the head with weak hands that beat me.

[/ QUOTE ]

A pair of eights that ends up 2-pair, trips, or a flush is "a weak hand that beat" him.

And raising with 3 eights on the river is pounding him over the head with "a weak hand that beats him".

So if you raise the turn and fail to improve, then you'll have to check behind on the river and suffer the loss of an extra big bet.

Is that worth more or less than the profit you make when you do improve plus the intimidation value you gain? (And I think you still gain intimidation with a turn raise even when you do check the river and lose the pot.)

Bob