5-5 NL Hand (Part 1)

[J.A.Sucker]

The game is a pretty good 5-5, 10 to go, NL game (9 handed). You have QQ UTG and bring it in for 20 bucks (starting the deal with 900). There are 4 cold callers (!) including the button, who is a very aggressive player with deep money (2.5 K). The pot is 110.

Flop: Qc-2c-7c.

Question #1: What's your play?

[1800GAMBLER]

Don't check! ... unless you are thinking about checkraising the button, but that could get messy with steals, resteals.

No time to mess about. No worries if everyone folds either.

Behind:

No time to fold either, you have your redraw + precentage of the time they hold AQo QKo (draw) or sets. So the -EV 1/3 of your cash you put in when you are up against a made flush is made up by the times you'll be putting your money in leading.

Summary, the moneys going in, in a fashion to charge any draws, get action from made hands or to not care if it's folded around.

edit: after reading the deep money, there's a small chance i may fold eventually, but not from the button if i felt he'd reraise AKs, maybe if he is a 67s coldcaller.

[sam h]

JA,

I think you should pot it and go with your read from there. I don't like checkraising the button so much because it will often put you in the position of committing 1/3 - 1/2 of your stack with little more information than you have now. The players between you and the button could easily check a high made flush on the flop, figuring he will bet. So you could be in a position of putting in 400 or so without really knowing anything about what's out there. Plus the free card possibility.

I also don't really like a big under or overbet. The underbet just gives good odds to draw for players with a high club and encourages aggression from the button. The overbet implies weakness in its own way and gives you fewer option if raised - any raise at that point will be committing to a showdown with you, and not give you the option of putting in a last raise that might (though probably not) get a low made flush to fold.

So yeah, pot it or maybe make it 80-90. Not exactly a revolutionary strategy. But that's part of what makes it best here. IMHO.

[Guy McSucker]

I don't know anything. I'm posting this to see if you guys think I'm thinking right.

You're either a 3-1 favourite or 2-1 dog against hands that will give action on this flop, and you don't know which.

I don't think you can check. If you do and it gets checked to the button, who bets, you're in a terrible position with three to act behind you, any of whom might have checked the flush. If it gets checked around, someone might hit their draw for nothing.

I think it's much better to bet through the field and see what happens. You'll only get action here from flushes, flush draws, and people who want to bluff you, I think. If you have any sort of a read, a bet gives you a good chance of playing it right from here on.

A really tricky player might flat call you with nothing/a draw and make his bluff on the turn, which would be awful. Is anyone that tricky here?

Icky situation. Look for a queen on the turn.

Guy.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
Question #1: What's your play?

[/ QUOTE ]

What color chips do you have?

If all red, grab a stack and put it in there. If you want to be cute, grab a couple extra and toss them in too.

If you have black and red, toss in 5 black and 5 red.

If you have white, black, and red, toss in 2 white and a couple of other chips (at random is fine).

[gavrilo]

this is funny..
checking with the intention of checking-raising the aggressive button seems like a bad idea, getting check-reraised would suck a lot here. i would bet pot and take it from there.

[1800GAMBLER]

You know, if that other queen would have flopped i'd be drunk by now.

Instead of thinking about the best play i think you should become closer to the poker gods.

[J.A.Sucker]

OK, so far, I don't think anyone would disagree with what I did.

I bet close the pot, 100 bucks, because that's a stack of red chips and that was convenient. It's folded to the button. He makes it 500 straight to go.

Question 2: Do you push in, fold, or call (I'm just including this choice to be thorough).

[J.A.Sucker]

Your comment about the poker gods is quite true. You have no idea how bad things have been for me lately.

[J.A.Sucker]

Believe me, if everyone folds here when I bet the pot, I'm a truly happy man. I'm NOT trying to "suck" value out of people here, unless I can get all the money in with multiple callers, which is unlikely (plus I think only the button and I had more than 500 behind, anyway). I'm also not enamored with throwing away top set. This hand really sucks, no matter which way you look at it, and that's why I posted it.

[sweetzer]

You mention a call "just to be thorough", but calling with the intent to bet the turn if another club doesn't fall is not a bad option. After the flop I believe you still have the best hand. You have 380 left. You have too many redraws to fold even if you believe he has a flush. Thus I would either pop it back all-in on the flop or call with the intent above.

[Zeno]

An aggressive player with deep money may obviously try to muscle you off the hand with a draw (he may have AK with only one club) or a weak made flush or close to nothing. He bet 1/5 of his stack; you can make him play for about 1/3 of his total stack - so either push all your money in or fold. It's a table and player read decision. Not easy sometimes but that's poker.

Would he bet $500 on the flop with the nut flush and position? What does he figure you have? How does he perceive you as a player? Those are factors to consider. If you figure you want to play for all your money get it in as quick as possible, don’t try and be fancy – just push in, if you are behind you still have outs.


-Zeno

[Zag]

I totally agree with the pot-sized bet, for all the reasons everyone has said.

I bet close the pot, 100 bucks, ... It's folded to the button. He makes it 500 straight to go.

He was the super-aggressive one, right? Push in. There is 700 in the pot right now, and you would be betting 780 to win it if he folds, and betting 780 to win 1080 if he calls. Note that, if you merely call, even if a club comes on the turn you will have odds to call the rest of your chips hoping for the river to pair the board. Therefore you might as well put them in now.

These are the hands he could hold:

A high made flush: Would he really have raised here? I doubt it.
A low made flush: Oh well, you still have almost enough outs to justify the bet.
A flush draw: you are ahead now. No question you want the money to go in
A lower set: Party time!!
Nothing but cajones: Seems possible, with this player.

So a low made flush is really the only hand I fear. It seems pretty unlikely, and, if he really has it, he deserves your chips.

[sweetzer]

Zag, I always really enjoy and respect your posts. You are correct here, as even if one only called the flop and a club fell on the turn, the odds would still favor going to the river, as you would be betting 380 to win 1480. Thus it would make sense to put it all-in on the flop.

[AJo Go All In]

oh wow, i was sitting here calculating exactly how much you should reraise, but then i saw you started the hand with 900? yeah, you obviously have to push in. this seems pretty straightforward.

with deep money i would say that you should make it something like 1200 to go, providing him with insufficient odds for a flush draw, but still allowing him to make a mistake. i don't really like pushing 2500 out there because in all likelihood you will only be called by a flush, or maybe a smaller set.

[turnipmonster]

[ QUOTE ]

Question 2: Do you push in, fold, or call

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi J.A.,
personally, I probably push in here. with a player like you described, he could have a made flush, which you have more than a few outs against, or he could have a set, a strong draw, or be trying to resteal. that combined with the chance that he will sometimes fold a non-nut draw make it ok.

I would think it odd if he actually had a made flush here.

--turnipmonster

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
Question 2: Do you push in, fold, or call (I'm just including this choice to be thorough).

[/ QUOTE ]

You have 400 to call and 800 left. Something like that, right? Push. If he has a flush, pair the board.

[J.A.Sucker]

I thought the decision was as clear as you say; push or fold. I pushed, and he called with a flopped 5-hi flush. Ugh. No help on the turn or river and I was busted.

Is there really ever a time (against most players) that you can fold here on the flop in this situation? At the time I didn't really think so, but now I'm not so sure...

[Zeno]

Your opponent probably did not want you to call the $500 or get reraised. He figured you for an over pair or combo of high cards that included one club or a set, or even a higher flush, once you pushed all in. His weak flush, dictated his bet.

[ QUOTE ]
Is there really ever a time (against most players) that you can fold here on the flop in this situation? At the time I didn't really think so, but now I'm not so sure...


[/ QUOTE ]

If you know the player well and his betting patterns and have a long history you may be able to pull off a great read and fold - but you do have top set on the flop - it is hard to toss it even if you think you may be beat or are getting the odds to draw. You just lost – and that’s it. You did not play the hand badly, in my opinion. Believe me, I know how this feels and the sting lingers, but you have to forget it and move on. Poker is not for the timid. Carry on! and good luck.

-Zeno

[Boris]

I would try my best to build a big pot on the flop. Bet $110 and come over the top of anyone who raises you. If you only get called and a club comes on the turn then probably check/fold to a big bet.

[Boris]

push all in and gamble with him.

[turnipmonster]

you know, my local pot limit game is the same blinds, 5-5, and a lot of people play with around 2k. since I am pretty inexperienced, I've been playing with a pretty short stack, usually around 500 or so.

The reason I'm bringing this up is I think your allin just gets easier and easier the shorter your stack, and harder and harder the deeper you get.

it almost seems like in this hand your stack size is about the worst it can be, since you can't potentially bust the button, but getting it all in on the flop requires a large commitment from you. starting with a $500 stack your move in is a no brainer, with a 3k stack now it's the button who has to make a decision for all his chips.

I think you played it great, just making an observation. I don't really like having a mid sized stack in a game like this, but this may be because I am not as skilled at playing a mid sized stack. thoughts/comments?

--turnipmonster

[Utah]

If my math is correct, which is in doubt at this hour, you need an 85% certainty to fold instead of push in.

Using rough math:

He has three real possibilities:
Flush
Draw
lower Set, Bluff

(possible set with draw - but I am leaving that out)

If he has flush: your EV is -170
If he has draw: your EV is 730
If he has other: Your EV is roughly 950 (for simplicity)

For simplicity's sake and being conservative (-170*.85) + (840*.15) is about break even.

[J.A.Sucker]

Thanks Zeno. All points are valid and appreciated.

As for the sting, it's gone. I have been evaluating my play of late, and this is one that I thought about because it seemed like a slam-dunk at the time, but then I had second thoughts. This guy, while aggressive, wasn't an idiot. I really thought it VERY likely that he had a small flush, which he did, when he raised me on the flop, but he could just as easily have something like AcQ. In either event, it's definately a situation where I would just assume get the money in and worry about it later.


I thought it was an interesting hand, though, win, lose, or draw.

[Ulysses]

Young man, we've now played countless sessions of poker together. And I think this hand illustrates why I am so much better of a poker player than you are. Up to a point, I would do things exactly the same - bet pot, get raised, push. But post-flop, I would have been sure to pair the board.

[Diplomat]

[ QUOTE ]
And I think this hand illustrates why I am so much better of a poker player than you are. Up to a point, I would do things exactly the same - bet pot, get raised, push. But post-flop, I would have been sure to pair the board.

[/ QUOTE ]

This reminds me of a Q /images/graemlins/spade.gifT /images/graemlins/spade.gif hand once posted on the mid-high limit forum....And a 23o post...(or was it 24o Ulysses?)

-Diplomat

[J.A.Sucker]

Right again, as always. You are like my "poker yoda" - small, old, and wise. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[LJH]

IMMEDIATELY RAISE THE POT LIMIT AND KEEP RE-RAISING . LJH