Who makes this flop call?

[Philuva]

This is from a $20-$40 online game. I am in the BB with A /images/graemlins/spade.gifJ /images/graemlins/spade.gif. 5 limpers to the SB. The SB raises. I make it 3 bets from the BB. Everyone calls and the SB caps it. All call. 7 players to the flop for 28 small bets.

Flop comes K /images/graemlins/spade.gifQ /images/graemlins/club.gif 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. It gets checked to a MP who bets. Another MP raises. CO 3-bets. SB folds.

There are still 2 players to act behind you. Who makes this call?

[DaShark]

Your over most likely isnt good here so you're drawing to a ten or runner runner spades. I'd say it's fold time.

[Ulysses]

Well, it seemed like an easy fold on first glance, then I counted the bets and, hmmmmmm, that's close, isn't it?

28+1+2+3 = 34. If nobody caps it, you'll get 12:1 or better. If it's capped, you'll get somewhere between 9:1 and 10:1 (or maybe better if one of the other flop checkers calls).

So, it's close, but you also have plenty of implied odds with this field. Someone could have full house redraws against you if you make your hand on the turn, but you also have backdoor flush possibilities.

Sometimes I call here, sometimes I fold. But what I really would have done is bet this flop.

[Gabe]

This is about as close as it gets.

As Dirty Harry would say: "You feeling lucky today punk."

Maybe betting out on the flop would have been a good idea. You wouldn't have gotten everyone to fold but it may have kept the betting a little more controlled.

[elysium]

hi phil
no, you can't call these. you could easily be up against 2 pair and may have to split the pot. your outs are crippled, and if the ace gets there, you don't like it anymore. it's no good for you phil.

[brad]

with the nut flush runner runner i think u have to stay in there.

but realize that someone has got to have the JT for the open ender, so i dont think u have 4 outs to a gutshot.

on the other hand, i think because of this you can lay down on the turn (if no spade ) pretty easily even if you have long odds.

[slavic]

I think it's a call but I don't know if I could call it in the heat of the moment. If you just look at the gutshot it's close, the backdoor flush puts it over and I think you A outs are dead because somebody has JT. Depending how this comes down though I'm thinking you are pot stuck on the turn.

This is going to be expensive. If the board pairs on the turn I think I give it up. And if I get to the river and catch anything I think a crying call is in order.

Wow I hate these hands when they don't come home to papa.

[Lawrence Ng]

Hey there Philuva,

7*4 = 28 small bets before the flop

flop comes 1 spade and you have a nut gutshot straight draw.

I like your check mainly because I'm almost sure that 1 or 2 jacks are already out in other player's hands for their straight draws and thus you are not likely to have 4 outs, but most likely 2 or 3 outs if you are drawing for the straight. And I wouldn't bet an ace to be any good, but if you do hit it on the turn, you may have to call down to the river.

So on the flop it comes back 3 bets to you and by this time there are 30 small bets and it's costing you 3 small bets to call giving you 10 to 1 odds which is very close to hitting a gutshot (11 to 1), but as I mentioned before most likely 1 or 2 jacks are already out in play.

If the turn comes another spade, then it's an easy call to see the river.

If the turn comes a pair I would fold my hand.

If the turn comes a non pair, then you really have to decide whether or not there will be enough implied odds if you do hit your straight on the river.

as mentioned before I really think ace is no good, but with a pot this big you have to call anyways.

Lawrence

[Ed Miller]

I really don't understand or like the preflop 3-bet. On the flop, I think you probably have to see the turn.

[Philuva]

The game was actually fairly tight before this hand. I figured with 2 people raising out of the blinds, some of the original limpers might actually fold. I thought that was worth a raise. Plus, I thought my hand to be best over all the limpers. Regardless, it plays well 7 handed even if everyone called.

[Philuva]

I can't remember the last time I called 3-cold, so this was an interesting hand for me.

At first I thought it was an easy fold, as others have indicated with 5 limpers out there, the possibility of TJ being out there is probably high, so one of my T outs is gone. But I think the backdoor flush draw makes it call.

I called 3 with the intention of probably folding on the turn if I didn't hit a spade or T.

It got capped on the flop with 4 of us seeing the turn.

The turn was the 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif.

I checked. MP1 checked. MP2 bet. CO raised. I called 2 cold. MP1 called and MP2 called.

The river was the beautiful T /images/graemlins/club.gif.

I bet out. MP1 folded. MP2 called. CO called.

Obviously my Broadway was good.

MP1 had flopped a set of 8's. MP2 had TJ for the turned straight. I had the nuts.

Thanks for all the comments. It was a 33 BB pot so obviously a nice little score. I guess there were 2 key decisions on this hand, the 3-bet from the BB pre-flop as Majorkong commented on and calling the 3-bets on the flop. Both probably very borderline.

[Philuva]

With this large a field, what are the advantages of betting this flop?

[Vehn]

I like betting the flop plenty. You're going to want to see the turn for sure anyways and you know at least one bet is going in somewhere. Betting out disguises your hand for basically no additional cost and limits your liability in that its possible that your initial bet will cause someone not to raise, in other words you won't be faced with a difficult decision on the flop like you did here because you're artificially giving yourself pot odds to call additional bets on the flop. If that makes any sense. Also since its online with a 4 bet cap it also limits your liability to a degree.

I think the 3 bet preflop is OK if and only if one of two things apply: the SB will often raise here with good multiway hands i.e. small pairs and stuff like JTs (or is just an idiot), AND your 3 bet will probably narrow the field; or you think all of the limpers will call 2 cold. And its still probably not a good 3-bet here in the latter situation.

[Philuva]

Good points. Should have bet the flop. I am not too worried about trying to thin the field as both my draws are to the nuts and my A out is probably not good no matter what. So no reason to go for a check raise. And if everyone calls my single bet, I am really not worse off.

[nykenny]

easy call. u can assume at least 4 way for 3 bets each on flop. that's 37 small bets less ur 3 bets. it feels like 12:1 immediate odds to chase. if you anticipate capped betting, u still getting 10:1 on 4 bets.

just imagine how bad you will feel if turn or river was the 10. it's a huge huge pot, i'd call even if i am little dog (10:1 or 9:1) just so i don't have to feel bad. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Kenny

[LetsRock]

[ QUOTE ]
It gets checked to a MP who bets. Another MP raises. CO 3-bets. SB folds.


[/ QUOTE ]

If you're going to call, you'll likely call the cap if it happens. Why not cap it yourself? Now you're forcing at least a couple of players to cold-call 4 bets, and the original bettor to cold-call 3.

Since you categorized the the table as "tight until this hand", I would think this would trim the field a bit.

Dumb move?

[Philuva]

What hands do I want out? It would be great if AK, AQ or A8 would fold, but as already mentioned, I am fairly confident given the betting action so far that my A is not an out anyway. As it would likely make a straight and I am fairly sure someone has 2-pair or a set already. So I probably would rather these hands to stick around to give me better pot odds for my straight or backdoor flush.

But I do agree it is probably going to be capped anyway, so there are some advantages to capping which could potentially slow down the betting on the turn if I pick up my flush draw to go along with my gutshot straight draw.

[CrackerZack]

But does your hand play well against hands the SB would raise the world with? Possibly, but I don't like it. I'd call PF. On the flop I'd call live because I'd see a lot of chips and have lost counts somewhere, online I'd probably fold because I'd see a few chips and look at a number.

[Philuva]

I didn't know the SB, but I would guess against 7 opponents his range of hands to raise with in the SB would be quite large to include any pair and suited A's.

The fact that he folded on the flop would confirm these assumptions.

[CrackerZack]

While I'll agree that these are hands that can and should be raised from the SB although I'm not big on the Axs raise, I find there are very, very, very few players that actually do. Although the highest I play online is 10-20 so maybe upstairs they're a little more apt to. Many of the party nutjobs used to raise from the SB with all sorts of crap, against them I like it, but at a tight table, I'm wouldn't 3-bet PF.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
With this large a field, what are the advantages of betting this flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Mainly to see the turn for cheaper. You 3-bet pre-flop. Now betting into this board will make it tough for anyone without some real goods to raise you.

On the other hand, if you just check, people might raise and re-raise w/ much less.

[Ulysses]

Why no river check-raise? Your turn cold-call feels most like AsQs to me and I can't imagine anyone with a Jack not betting the river, though a JT could easily just call a bet expecting to now chop w/ QJ, KJ, etc.

[Philuva]

I was pretty sure CO had the straight. I wasn't sure about the 2 MP hands but figured they had a set or 2 pair.

I figured if I went for the CR. MP's would both check and CO would bet. Then MP's would probably fold w/o a J when I raised.

I was hoping to bet, both MP's call and have the CO raise think he was gaining value even with a chopped pot. Then I could 3 bet.

I really expected at the worst that all 3 would call. Which I would rather than a disastrous checked through.

[Vehn]

I like a river bet here a helluva lot more than an attempted checkraise, and I go for river check raises a lot more than most I would guess. This isn't the spot.

[astroglide]

i don't make the preflop reraise out of position with high cards that are very likely no good. having many opponents, several of whom you may knock out, is not enough justification for me to chop my own flush odds down.

[David Sklansky]

It's right to call. It's better to come out betting. I have written someplace that I once bet 87 of hearts into eight players when the pot was capped preflop and it came TT5 with one heart. Same principle here.

[Ulysses]

I skimmed the results and thought MP was the one firing the last barrel and CO was calling, in which case I definitely like a checkraise. With CO as the last aggressor, I agree that a river bet is better.

Having said that, I've seen people call two cold w/ a pretty wide range of hands at the end (even when they know they can't be good) when the pot gets this big, so maybe a checkraise attempt isn't all that bad.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
I really don't understand or like the preflop 3-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

That was my initial thought. By three betting, you cut down your implied odds for the flush and risk ending up HU against an hand that may well dominate you.

[Ed Miller]

That was my initial thought. By three betting, you cut down your implied odds for the flush and risk ending up HU against an hand that may well dominate you.

There is zero "risk" of being headsup. However, if there were such a risk, I would most definitely 3-bet. /images/graemlins/smile.gif All that dead money in the pot provides plenty of overlay to take the worst of it after the flop.

I don't think the 3-bet is terrible... I just prefer not to bloat the pot before the flop too much from the blinds unless I have a real big edge over the field (i.e. AA or KK basically.. AKs also). The reason is that most players make more expensive mistakes after the flop in small pots than they do in big pots. Like, for instance, that our hero should call three cold with his gutshot, overcard, and backdoor flush. Also, with a hand like AJs, I'd prefer to have the probable flop bet coming from my right rather than from me.

[James282]

David,
How did you manage to get into a capped pot with 87s, out of curiosity? The guy who wrote the "Sklansky ate my Brain" article on poversavvy.com specifically criticizes your advice because you don't think it's right to play 76s in a capped pot. Did it happen something like..UTG limps, UTG+1 Raises, cold-called to you in the BB and you call, UTG now reraises, UTG+1 caps and it's called to you, getting 26-1 odds on calling 2 more bets? I also don't understand why you would bet into the field with that hand against 8 opponents, your draw doesn't seem to be very strong. I understand the logic behind betting into the field in the posted hand, however.
-James

[glen]

I think it's safe to assume he didn't call 4 cold, and it happened more along the lines of how you described it. . .

[Vehn]

He was on drunken tilt.

[nykenny]

[ QUOTE ]
I also don't understand why you would bet into the field with that hand against 8 opponents, your draw doesn't seem to be very strong.

[/ QUOTE ]
my guess is that David wanted someone to raise him to thin the field so that his back door outs can be clean.

Kenny

[CrackerZack]

Excellent response.

Also, the article advocated it with 76o, not suited. I like the article. I'm gonna start playing that way. How big of a bankroll should I have?