Really need help/comments on the AKo fold

[jacki]

I need help with this AKo hand.
Did I make the right decision after the flop?
(Don't really have any reads, fairly early in my session.)


Preflop:
I've got A /images/graemlins/spade.gif K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif in the BB ($30)
UTG limps
LP ($36) raises to $1 (what do you think about these min. raises? I tend to nearly ignore them)
CO ($25) raises $3
JACKI raises to $6 --let's see if he's really got something.
LP min raiser calls
CO reraises 6 to $9--uhoh, he's really got something
JACKI calls
LP calls
3 to the flop for about $30

FLOP: [ 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif, J /images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif ]
JACKI checks.
LP min raiser bets 0.50
CO raises to $7
I have to fold here right? He's got either AA or KK. I'm dead to AA, and only 3 outs if it's KK. And I shouldn't really consider the backdoor flush, should I?
JACKI folds
LP calls

TURN: A /images/graemlins/heart.gif --- oh, [censored].
LP bets (0.50) -- what a dumbass.
CO raises allin to $9
LP calls.

RIVER: 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

CO turns over KhKc to scoop a $57.25 pot

SO, did I make the right fold here? Did I screw up pre-flop. Or did I do OK?
Bonus question: what did LP min raiser idiot have?

[bisonbison]

When someone min-raises at any time, I make a note.
When someone min-bets on a later round, I make a note.

It's usually a sign of weak play. Some people use it preflop with KK or AA to induce a re-raise, but unless you know he's a decent player, it tends to scream "I want to play Limit but I clicked the wrong table." I'm guessing LP had a pair of sixes or JTs.

CO's reraise preflop doesn't have to be AA or KK. If it was one of those, I think a lot of people would really come back over the top of you, reraising to $12 or more. There's a range of pocket pairs he could go to $9 with. Still, when you miss the flop, you did the right thing by discarding. Sure, his bet of 1/4 the pot on the flop is weak weak weak, but I wouldn't chase.

I think CO made a real mistake not driving people out on the flop by pushing in. Then the turn comes with the only card that could beat him and he pushes in. Not a great play.

[SevenStuda]

[jacki]

Thanks for the reply.
Min raiser had 88

OK, so I felt moderately OK folding this. How wrong would it have been to call? or even reraise?

[Zag]

How wrong would it have been to call? or even reraise?

Very wrong. There are two species of min raisers -- the complete idiots you should ignore completely, and the idiots who think they are sucking you in with their strong hands. With either type, the other player, whom you respect, has put in a big raise after. You had already put him on a good hand, and he is just reinforcing it. One of the two has at least KK, if you are really unlucky, you are looking at AA vs KK and you are drawing nearly dead. Dump your AK.

Note that, while AK is only a slight dog to a pair preflop, once the flop has come out and failed to produce the desired A or K, AK is now a big dog to anyone with any pair. Pitch it.

P.S. you didn't ask, but your preflop raise was too small. It should be pot-sized, at least. You raised $3 to make the pot $11. You should have raised to $11 or more. When he then rerereraises you, lay it down preflop if you respect the player at all, because he has the dreaded AA or KK which is AK's bane.

[bisonbison]

Pre-flop, when the action gets to him, there is $4.50 in the pot. If he wants to make a pot sized bet, doesn't that mean he should raise to $9?

I'm not trying to nitpick, I'm trying to make sure I understand what people mean when they say "pot sized bet".

Is there real value in raising it to $11 or more instead of $9?

[tewall]

I agree with all this, and will add one thought. When the action gets back to you ("you" = original poster) pre-flop, you're in a raise/fold situation. AK plays well with all the money in pre-flop (unless it's dominated by AA or KK).

You need to make a decision. Either you're against AA or KK, or you're not. If you decide you're not, go all-in. If you decide you are, fold, as almost no flop will make you very happy. Even if an ace comes, you don't know if you're happy or not.

[Paul2432]

A "pot sized bet" is straight forward. It is simply the amount in the pot. A "pot sized raised" is sometimes confusing. The thing to remember is that the size of the pot includes the amount needed to call before raising.

For example, in the given hand, after the CO raises to $3 and the big blind calls there will be $7.25 in the pot. ($3 from the CO and BB, $1 from LP, and $0.25 from SB). A pot sized raise would then be to $10.25.

Paul

[turnipmonster]

I assume you are talking about the PP $25 NL game. great game. I openraise for $1 with any raising hand I play, including AA, KK, AQs, etc. I think it's a good play, and definitely think it has helped get me action on my good hands, and helped me get away from dominated hands easily. It's probably a good idea to realize that not everyone who is openraising for $1 is clueless /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

--turnipmonster

[turnipmonster]

[ QUOTE ]

If you decide you're not, go all-in.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with this strongly. if you can put your opponent on a big pair, say AA-TT, you are either a small favorite or a huge dog if your allin gets called. I could understand this play if you had a very short stack, but you don't.

personally, I am not a big fan of raising big with AK preflop. it is a good hand, but it is still a drawing hand, and one that can be dominated. In addition to that, in these games you can often get players to overplay JJ and QQ on the flop when you do hit. why not call and get it in on the flop when you have a better idea of where you're at?

--turnipmonster

[tewall]

"I could understand this play if you had a very short stack, but you don't. "

It's pretty short. At the time for him to act, he has about $20 which is about what's in the pot. So going all-in would not even be raising the pot.

I was suggesting going all-in if he thought his AK was the best hand. Like going against Ace rag. Not if he thought his opponent had high pocket pairs. But even against pocket pairs, going all-in would probably be O.K.

Let's say he's against AA-99. If he calls, then:
a) An Ace or King flops
b) It doesn't

In a) he probably wins a small pot or loses a big one. In b) he's out of the running.

If he goes all-in, he wins a big pot anytime an A or K falls on the board (that doesn't lose, as before). So he can win big pots against 99-QQ when an Ace falls, and the A or K doesn't have to come on the flop, since he's all-in. So instead of winning a small pot when an A or K falls on the flop, he wins a big pot whenever an A or K falls, not only on the flop, but anytime. There's also the chance the pp will fold to the pre-flop raise, too, which is what makes raising a possibly good play. That is, the raise is good if your opponent is fairly likely to either fold or chase with a dominated (non-paired) hand.

[bisonbison]

Excuse me while I round numbers:

Ok, so, in this situation, when BB has $30, it's $3 to call and the pot is at $4, does it make more sense to make it $7 to go (call $3-raise $4) or, to make it $10 to go (call $3-raise $7)?

The first action commits $7 (less than 1/4 of his stack), the second commits $10 (1/3 of his stack). And in terms of the CO's stack, calling $4 more commits 1/5, calling $7 more commits about 1/3.

I think the $7 bet is substantial enough to signal real strength without tieing me to the hand too much if the CO comes back over the top. But it would be pretty easy for CO to call the $7 bet (just $4 more for him) with a decent hand and get away from it if he hates the flop.

I am an NL newbie, and I don't want to commit 1/3rd of my stack on a play where I may fold before the flop, but I can see how making the larger pot-raise would force CO to make a tougher decision, even if I feel like it's overcommitting me.

Is my desire to make the smaller pot-raise just weak play on my part?

[Zag]

[ QUOTE ]
I openraise for $1 [fairly often] ... It's probably a good idea to realize that not everyone who is openraising for $1 is clueless /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, you haven't yet convinced me of that. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ QUOTE ]
... in these games you can often get players to overplay JJ and QQ on the flop when you do hit. why not call and get it in on the flop when you have a better idea of where you're at?

[/ QUOTE ]
If it is really true that 99-QQ will still be going all in after an A or K flops, then you have a point. It's been a while since I have played the $25 games, but is this really true? Predictably all-in without even top pair?? It's like pennies from heaven.

[turnipmonster]

[ QUOTE ]
It's pretty short. At the time for him to act, he has about $20 which is about what's in the pot. So going all-in would not even be raising the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

point taken. I guess the reraise to 6 is what I didn't like.

[ QUOTE ]

That is, the raise is good if your opponent is fairly likely to either fold or chase with a dominated (non-paired) hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

the 3rd raise preflop makes me very doubtful that
a) the opponent is folding
b) the opponent has AQ,AJ or KQ

although b could happen. I guess going all in is not such a terrible play here, but any way you slice it if he puts his opponent on a pair, he is either choosing to take a 30% shot for 1/3 of his stack (an A or K flops), or a 50% shot for his whole stack.

but say we're committed to seeing all 5 cards, and going all in no matter what.

I guess here's what I'm thinking in this spot. If I go all in preflop, it's very hard for my opponent to make a mistake. he will probably fold AQ,AJ etc, and he will probably call me with any hand that gives me an even money shot. If I call the 9$ and push in on the flop no matter what, my opponent has more of a chance to make a mistake, which in this case would be a horrendous laydown (if we don't hit), or perhaps an overplayed pair (if we do).

so while I don't disagree with going all in, I do disagree doing it preflop. now prove me wrong, and teach me something, as you are probably a lot more experienced than me /images/graemlins/smile.gif
--turnipmonster

[turnipmonster]

[quoteWell, you haven't yet convinced me of that. /images/graemlins/grin.gif



[/ QUOTE ]

I'm learning, ok? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]
but is this really true? Predictably all-in without even top pair?? It's like pennies from heaven.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, and yes. not always predictably, but I believe enough to make it a profitable move. people get married to their pocket pairs, and really do make a noble attempt at hoping they're good /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

--turnipmonster

[turnipmonster]

incidentally, what again is everyone's problem with a minimum openraise?

let's just assume that we want to have a constant amount we openraise with, to avoid leaking information preflop. in a live NL game, my standard opening amount is 3x the big blind, which is reasonable. lots of players much better than I do this.

so in the party $25 max, what should I openraise with? the blinds are very high compared with the max buyin, so if I pick an amount too high I'm going to get pot stuck very quickly with all the callers, often with a hand I don't want to be pot stuck with. I guess my ideal amount is a little less than 1.50, and with that "raise to $1" button right there, I just generally hit it. why does everyone think this is a bad play?

note that I am not talking about raising limpers, or reraising.

--turnipmonster

[jacki]

--At $25 Party--
Let's say you're at a full table UTG with X-X, and you raise to $1. How many callers will you get?
--assuming no reraisers, I would guess 5-7 will see the flop.

Now let's say you're at a full table UTG with X-X, and you raise to $3. How many callers will you get?
--assuming no reraisers, I would guess 2-3 will see the flop.

Now, if X-X is A-A, or A-K, or any hand worth raising, which situation would you rather be in?

[jacki]

After reading all the comments, it seems like the post-flop decision is pretty easy compared to the preflop decision.

.... many of you seem to be saying I should have re-raised more. But didn't I get the information I was looking for with the raise I made? ...i.e. I could now put him on AA or KK?

[turnipmonster]

[ QUOTE ]

Now, if X-X is A-A, or A-K, or any hand worth raising, which situation would you rather be in?

[/ QUOTE ]

If I openraise to $3 preflop, I will get no callers unless I am probably beaten, because I never openraise that much preflop.

If you are playing against thinking players and you are raising to $3 with some hands and to $1 with others, unless you are very unpredictable you are going to give us a ton of information about how you play, and what you have. in NL, this isn't such a great idea.


standard opens are a very, very common of live big bet games, for a reason. Again, I am not talking about raising limpers here. if there are 5 limpers then I am always raising the pot (3.75) with any raising hand.

--turnipmonster

[turnipmonster]

[ QUOTE ]

Now, if X-X is A-A, or A-K, or any hand worth raising, which situation would you rather be in?

[/ QUOTE ]

hi jacki,
most of the time, I would rather have 5-7 callers. I wouldn't like to have that many with AA or KK, but most of the time I openraise I don't have those hands, I have AQs or AKs or a pocket pair or something. I love to have a lot of callers most of the time, because most of the time I've got a hand that I can either win a big pot with later or get away cheap from earlier. I probably am giving up a little bit by not raising more with AA-TT, but I feel that I make more than that back by not leaking information preflop.

--turnipmonster

[tewall]

The idea of calling and then going all-in on the flop no matter what falls is an interesting one. I'll have to think about that.

If an AQ type hand will fold to your all-in, that's O.K. You're happy to take it down with AK. You could also occasionally make the same play as a bluff and do fine. However, many players will not only call with AQ, but A9 or A5 as well. So going all-in with AK will give them an opportunity to make a mistake.

If the stacks were deep and the players decent, I agree completely with your thoughts. In this situation, AKo is very possibly a trouble hand.

[tewall]

This is backwards, turnipmonster. If you have AA or KK, you don't mind many callers, because you'll make more money that way. (you'll win fewer pots % wise, but the pots will be bigger, and overall you'll make more) AK and AQ would rather have fewer callers as it makes more money against fewer opponents.

(this isn't a comment on the overall strategy, just a nit on this particular comment)

[Zag]

(You knew I was kidding with my wise-alek comment, right?)

I actually have a little less problem with the minimum open raise than with the minimum raise after limpers. It seems incredible to me the number of times I have seen 2 or 3 limpers, then a minimum raise, I call on the button with, say, 9Ts, then the first limper makes a huge reraise and takes it down. Either it was collusion, or the person making the minimum reraise was just stupidly reopening the betting so he could be pushed off and not even get to see the flop. I can't imagine people bothering to collude in the $25 buy-in games, and stupidity seems a perfectly reasonable explanation.

When open-raising, I don't think that a minimum bet does much to improve your chances of winning the hand, but it raises the stakes on the hand, and therefore cuts your implied odds in half. Since the Party games have such a low cieling, anyway -- by this I mean that the maximum buy-in is a relatively small multiple of the blinds -- you are hurting the opportunity for post-flop play even further. If, for example, you feel you have better selection of starting hands than the other players, but they are better post-flop, then always opening with a minimum raise on any hand you plan to play makes a lot of sense. You would be capitalizing on your strength and diminishing your weakness. However, if you feel you play better post-flop, then you want to keep the preflop betting small, so that you have the maximum (relative) maneuvering room post-flop.

Let's take AK for a minute. It is ahead of any non-pair, but it dominates the worse aces and kings. Ideally, it would like to play against them only. If your open raises are to 4 times the BB, you will drop out a lot of the lesser hands, and, if they are playing correctly, you will drop a lot of small pairs, the hands that are actually ahead of you. That was totally confusing, but let me give an example. Say these are the hands, and you are the AK under the gun, and let's assume the suited hands are different suits.

SB:33 BB:24s AK QTs AJ 77 89s 56s

If you open raise the minimum, probably everyone here will call, and only the QTs was making a big mistake at the time. (The others had the weight of the earlier calls to give them pot odds.) Your equity here is less than average at 0.098!!. Amazingly enough, the QT is winning this particular match-up. http://twodimes.net/h/?z=146869 (Admittedly, I rigged this example a little.)

However, if you make a real raise preflop, then possibly the AJ is the only one who will call. You are ahead almost 3-to-1. http://twodimes.net/h/?z=146874 If the 77 knew for sure you didn't have a bigger pair, it would pay him to come in, but he is so dominated if you actually have KK that he really shouldn't.

The point is that, when you have a good hand, you ususally want to drop the riff-raff and concentrate on the other hands which are good but not as good as yours. These hands you have dominated. With the riff-raff, while you are ahead of any one of them, you may not may not be ahead of the field -- you are just another player with no huge edge. The hands that AK makes are usually good enough to beat one other player, but not usually good enough to beat 5 others, because some idiot will spike a bottom two or a backdoor flush.

Since you clearly want to open-raise 4 BB with AK, what are you going to do with AA, KK, QQ? Well, these play well with either a big field or a small one, so you could reasonably go either way. But, since you want your AK bets to drop the small pairs, you have to give those small pairs a credible reason to fold. Therefore, you have to make the same bet with AA that you do with AK, or they will be able to tell the difference.

[turnipmonster]

good post!
one thing, do you think 4BB is enough to drop small pairs? personally, I don't. a lot of players will call with a pocket pair if it's around 10% of their stack to play, since if they hit a set they can probably double through (I think the 5 and 10 rule is out of ciaffone/reuben, no?) if the avg. stack is around 25, those players can make a call even if they suspect possible domination, because it's such a fit or fold situation. either flop a set and probably double up, or fold it and lose~10% of their stack.

assuming players follow this rule (I know many don't), we'd really need to raise slightly more to make it not worth their while to play.

--turnipmonster

[Zag]

Thanks for the kind words.

I agree on the size of the bet -- it is very dependent on the other players, on theirs and your stack sizes, on the general table feel, on your own image, etc. Anywhere up to a double pot overbet might be the right number, though it would be rare, even on Party, for it to get this high. Remember that you want the AJ and AT hands to call. They are much more common than pairs, so if you have to risk letting a pair in to keep them, it is worth it.

[Brad G]

Jacki,

I have one comment about your play.

I like your hand, but hate the position (all the raisers behind you).

I prefer to just call the re-raise. Then see if the flop brings you some love. Vs. two raisers, this is a drawing hand in my book. Call, look for the ace or king (and even then you have to play carefully because of the 2nd raiser). AK is a hand that can be very expensive.

If the two raiser both made full raises I would lay this down in early position. Some may say this is too tight, but you have almost nothing invested, so why not wait for 15 seconds till the next hand starts, when you could find a situation with a greater expectation.

Bottom line is that the three most important things about no limit is the same as real estate LOCATION LOCATION LOCATION or POSITION POSITION POSITION.

Play those AK when you have the lead, and position.

Good luck
Brad