A,J Grossly Overplayed and Badly Played?

[PokerBabe(aka)]

The Rodeo is in town and today, a cowboy roped some of the Babe's chips. Game is a very good 20-40 at the Mirage. Cowboy is having a rip roaring time and playing any two for any amount. He really wants to shoot dice, but thought he would stop by the poker room first. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif He has shown us K,10 off, 6,4 suited and a J,8 when this hand comes up.

I open raise with A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif J /images/graemlins/spade.gif in late middle position. Folded to the cowboy in the sb who calls. Flop is 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Cowboy bets and I raise, he 3 bets, I make it 4 and he makes it 100 now. Although we are heads up, I decide maybe I am behind to 2 pair or even a set, so I just call the 5th bet (who folds here?). Turn is A /images/graemlins/club.gif. Cowboy bets right out and I raise. He stops for a second and says "ok, well, if you really have a set of Jacks, I just call" /images/graemlins/confused.gif. The river is a 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif Cowboy now bets out again, which seems in direct opposition to his comment on the last street about my possible set of Jacks. Well, "hot damn...", I think, he's got a set for sure and he was just taunting me like a Rodeo clown might do to a bull. I figure raising the river serves no purpose as he will call anyway and I am not folding for one more bet here. Cowboy shows me pocket 7's and lassos my chips.


Comments welcome.

LGPG and Giddy UP.

Babe /images/graemlins/heart.gif

[Howard Burroughs]

I would have played the hand exactly the same as you did (that may not be a good thing though).



RGPG (raise good, play good)

H.B.

[shutupndeal]

Babe,

seriously now, how do you want one of us to answer that post? : )
I mean I wasnt there and you were right? The clown could have showed ya anything from what your telling us he was playing like so I wont knock ya for deciding to play on but did you really think he was kidding past 3 bets?
I have to know just what YOU were thinking before I can answer if you overplayed it or not according to how YOU play. For me I couldnt see myself getting roped in like that.
Tell you something else, A-Jo is no world beater and playing middle limit you should know that. What you forgot to ask yourself is with that board, what do you think he put you on with you throwing bombs on his chin and taking no heat Babe?
Please dont think I am totally knocking your game and this is why a lot of the time I hate to critique someones play and please know I did this to help in whatever way I could and am not for a second looking down on your play or anything Ok? You asked and I offered what I thought about what was written. : ) Seriously tho, you would have been better off to take me to brunch and I could have made a new friend <as you would have> and it would have ben cheaper and as lucky as the cowboy was we could have stopped off at his crap table and picked up a few bucks! /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[mikelow]

Considering the hands he showed, you might have overestimated your opponent's looseness. The way the hand went, he just had to have a set.

So you overplayed it on the flop. Three bets is enough.

[shemp]

I would have played it the same -- which may indicate that I'm not very good (if this doesn't so indicate, still other things do). On the flop you are overstating your hand, and he still loves his -- and the ace doesn't actually change that -- provided you can rule out 72 that leaves only J7. I do well to remind myself that just because a guy-gal plays some kooky cards doesn't mean they give kooky preflop raises or postflop action on rainbow boards. There are, of course, players who you would be wrong not to raise the river (and at every other opportunity, but this guy doesn't look like it). Notice how he gives a weakish tell -- I've got a set, I've noticed you play tight and could have a better hand, I'm tired of getting raised, so next time, have the courtesy to have a big set.

You can't fold anywhere here against someone you don't know well.

[PokerBabe(aka)]

Sure, A,J is not a "world beater", but on that flop it looks darn good heads up, against my cowboy, no? Would you not raise with that hand 3 off the button if you think you may get only one caller? Of course, if I am 3 bet btf, and I flop dead, I am gone, so it's an easy hand to play. As for what the cowboy put me on, I was CLEARLY trying to muscle it on the turn for dramatic impact and when I raised him after he showed so much strength I was looking for confirmation of HIS hand, which I didn't receive. He just called the turn raise and mumbles about my possible set of Jacks /images/graemlins/confused.gif. So, God knows what he put me on. I guess on the river, he didn't put me on much since he bet into me. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

LGPG,

Babe /images/graemlins/heart.gif

[PokerBabe(aka)]

Your point about overestimating an opponent's looseness is well taken. The other day, I saw a guy 4 bet with no pair no draw on the flop in the 20-40 game. Maybe I was still thinking about that guy? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

LGPG,

Babe /images/graemlins/heart.gif

[shutupndeal]

Babe,
Yeah, I see your point and its no biggie but I just feel that yes you did overplay it a tad, and I really dont fault ya with such an unusual player but let me ask you this Babe, how did he play after that hand? In your estimation did this clown have his shingle out with those crazy hands he was playing? <advertising>
And I dont for a sec fault you as I said really I dont, I do give you props for having heart, I didnt like his comment either about the set of J's. I just know this moron thinks he played that hand like a world class player or something and I think thats what bothers me the most ya know that? Thats why I asked ya how he did later also.
Know what too, your just really aggrssive is all and theres nothing wrong with that either, you will more than make up for it on the next good night so dont worry about it at all!

[turnipmonster]

seems like you lost the minimum here, from what you described. I can see calling the 3 bet and raising the turn, but then he reraises so there's that extra big bet. even the live ones get a good hand every now and then.

--turnipmonster

[PokerBabe(aka)]

Cowboy won 800 in the game and then took off to the dice table. Babe won less than a rack, but tomorrow, we ride again.

LGPG,

Babe /images/graemlins/heart.gif

[cepstrum]

babe -

when the small blind bets into this crappy board and into someone who is virtually certain to bet the flop herself, something is fishy. this is often so even when your opponent probably isn't very good and would rather be shooting dice.
and when something is fishy, raising is often not the best play.

lg

cepstrum

[PokerPrince]

I think you played it just fine PokerBabe, don't sweat it. These are inevitable situations where you are GOING to lose a fair chunk of change.

PokerPrince

P.S. I'll be in Vegas Sun-Wed.

[andyfox]

When they bet into that Ace on the turn and it helps me, I usually don't raise unless I want to be reraised. Either they're snowing or they want to be raised. If they're snowing, let 'em keep going since I'm not worried about overcards.

Cowboy played the hand well. Would you have laid down if he 3-bet the turn?

Regards,
Andy

[elysium]

hi babe
played perfectly.

[Barry]

I can't think of playing it much different, but then again I'm not the rock-like Babe who might think about folding to the 5-bet on the flop.

We're still digging out from our 1st snow storm of the year and I can't wait to get out of here to get there later this month.

Practice your golf game...

[SinCityGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
He stops for a second and says "ok, well, if you really have a set of Jacks, I just call"

[/ QUOTE ]

I share your confusion on that comment. If you did indeed have JJ (the flopped nuts), then you certainly wouldn't have just called the final raise on the flop. In fact, you probably would have smooth called his first bet, then drilled him on the turn.

As for the hand, I probably would have check/called the turn, but I tend to play too weak/tight at times.

I have no doubt that you will get those chips back (plus more) if the cowboy stops by again.

[leon]

Babe, based on your description he sounds like a loose aggressive player. I know how you love those types /images/graemlins/smirk.gif
It sounds like he's got the macho thing going on. Here's how I'd play the hand, with intrahand narration-

Preflop- easy raise. Good, he called, we're HU and I have position.

Flop- Good, TPTK. Hmm he bet, I'll raise, hmm he three bet, Maybe he has a real hand this time. I'll call and pop on the turn barring a new development or read.

Turn- I should have the best hand. Good he's betting into me- Raise! His chatter is meaningless and he just called.

River- I should still have the best hand. Good he's betting into me- Raise!

Here's where the tale ends b/c I don't know how he would have responded here. But my instinct says he'd call.

So basically I would have played it the same as you except on the flop. And that's only b/c I gain no info 4 betting on the flop- he might 5 bet out of pure spite, pure nuts, or both. A turn raise and his reaction to it gives me more info. I feel very confident on the flop, and even better on the turn and river, to the point I lose one more BB than you on the river (but not as much on the flop).

Your mistake here, if there was one, was perhaps tagging him as a maniac who was willing to throw many chips in with no hand, as opposed to a LAG who will play many hands, but then might not commit as many without a real hand. You were there so I'll trust your read. In fact you never specified if he was a true maniac.

This hand is pretty straightforward. Top two vs a set- you're SUPPOSED to lose a lot of money. If you didn't you probably played it wrong.

Better luck next time.

Leon

[PokerBabe(aka)]

Andy, you stated, " When they bet into that Ace on the turn and it helps me, I usually don't raise unless I want to be reraised." /images/graemlins/tongue.gif
I was digging for info on this one, thinking that Rodeo boy pops it for a buck twenty if he does INDEED have a set. Apparently, he was spooked just enough to only call the raise, but then his river bet totally nullifies his spooked-ness!! In fact, when he bets that river, it's a total act of defiance /images/graemlins/mad.gif. No real gentleman cowboy would do that to the Babe /images/graemlins/wink.gif.

As to your question about laying it down for a 3rd bet on the turn.....YUP, this cowgirl now goes back to the barn and puts on some chaps if my hat wearing pal puts the spurs to the horse on this one.

And...YUP, Cowboy played it well. Gosh darn it.

LGPG,

Babe /images/graemlins/heart.gif

[PokerBabe(aka)]

Practice my golf game? Hey, I'm tanglin' with cowboys and all you can think about is golf? /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/laugh.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif

See you soon and Happy Holidays,

Babe /images/graemlins/heart.gif

[PokerBabe(aka)]

Hi leon....I think your categorization of cowboy as LAP vs. maniac is correct. Yet, a rose by any other name is still a cowboy who plays lots of hands preflop for a raise without much thought to those little issues like position and S&M "starting standards".

All this aside, I felt a river raise would accomplish nothing, as my roping champ will not fold for one more bet (he is NOT a Tommy A type). I think raising the river is just futile here.

I tried to muscle it on the flop and the turn kinda hoping to get that infamous "free" showdown on the river. I also was a bit surprised that this guy just keeps coming in the face of such strength by a preflop raiser. I mean it IS possible that I had a set of Jacks or even Aces (especially when I raise the turn, right). As I thought more about this hand today, I was really a bit surprised the guy didn't check the river. As you noted, however, my top 2 vs. baby set means lots of lost chips in the cow pasture. Shucks, I do so hate when that happens.

LGPG,

Babe /images/graemlins/heart.gif

[PokerBabe(aka)]

HI SinCity,

You are correct that I would have likely only called to a 3rd bet on the flop if I had a set of Jacks and then raised the turn. Hmmmmm....wonder if that changes anything here? Naw....Cowboy is riding into the sunset on this one as the CowBabe heads for the barn.

LGPG,

Babe /images/graemlins/heart.gif

[J_V]

If he 3 bets are you gonna fold? No since you have pot odds or close to it. If you don't fold the river, the info doesn't help that much.

[leon]

When I raise the river, I'm not looking to get him to fold. I'm raising b/c I think I have the best hand and he'll call with worse. With the info at hand, esp the turn play, I'm not that worried about a set. I tend to disregard all patter at the table save for someone I have a known verbal tell on.

As I said before, I lose the same if not more than you here, b/c I assume my hand is good and I'm extracting bets.

Leon