KJs in SB huge pot

[vkotlyar]

loose 10-20 game. UTG open raises. Doesnt mean much. 6 people cold-call. I have KJs in the SB, and make it 3 bets.
Any disagree? I think that big suited broadway cards are worth a cap in a 7-way pot. I am not planning on winning with just a pair, but by raising i am guarantee myself (and others) correct chasing odds. I will make the same play w AKs, AQs, KQs, and 10Js. Comments?

[samdash]

Hi v
Just call here.

[Buckshot]

I would just call. You're trying to manipulate your odds on a hand that admittedly needs help. I hope you flopped a royal.

~stephen

[Inthacup]

but by raising i am guarantee myself (and others) correct chasing odds.

That doesn't make the raise correct. If there are already 14 SB in the pot, what can't you chase?


Bad raise IMO. Most likely, you're 3-betting into a dominated hand out of position. You should pick a better spot for this type of play.


Cup

[turnipmonster]

I think this qualifies as ramming and jamming preflop. here is a good article:
http://slicer.headsupclub.com:3455/16/23

I also think this is a very thin preflop raise, here's an article on that:
http://slicer.headsupclub.com:3455/16/29

The problem I see with your hand is that barring a broadway draw, you are not hitting to the nuts here, so the value of your suitedness is somewhat decreased. the 2nd nut flush can be an extremely expensive hand.

I think a raise may be profitable here vs. that many loose limpers, but you should realize what this is going to do to your variance and make sure you have the bankroll to support that.

also, you position really, really sucks. I think it's a much better move if you're on the button.

--turnipmonster

[turnipmonster]

as you said, in order to make this play profitably, you also need to be able to fold top pair and possibly even two pair, as top pair is likely dominated, and two pair will very likely give someone else an open ender or broadway draw.

the more I think about it, the less I really like KJ here.

--turnipmonster

[Al_Capone_Junior]

tho i don't think you lose anything by doing this, i am not sure what you gain either, besides a higher SD. I'da just called, you'll have plenty of chasing odds anyway.

al

[mike l.]

skip on the reraise w/ KJs and JTs and the like. just do it with the AKs, AQs, and sometimes KQs. also do it with medium sized pocket pairs sometimes (as well as big ones of course).

[Paluka]

[ QUOTE ]
skip on the reraise w/ KJs and JTs and the like. just do it with the AKs, AQs, and sometimes KQs. also do it with medium sized pocket pairs sometimes (as well as big ones of course).

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I like it better with JTs than with KQs. With KQ you have to fear domination much more, so it becomes more difficult to push your hand even when you flop big.

[Gabe]

I think the play is ok, particularly if the callers are likely to have bad non-multiway hands. KJs is the last of the hands that you listed that I would nomally make this play with in the blinds, but I often would with JTs. With this many callers, I think the KJs raise is good, T9s, too. Pocket pairs also.

[andyfox]

All those cold-callers, I'd be wary of A-J of K-Q, so I don't particularly like the 3-bet. But what the hell. Give 'em something to think about for the price of one small bet.

[elysium]

hi vk
you don't like doing a whole lot of that. not good for you.

[Lawrence Ng]

With this many callers, I'd be very cautious of AK or AJ out there, and thus wouldn't re-raise pre-flop.

You really don't want to hit a pair, though if you were to hit a pair I'd rather hit a king than a jack.

You want a straight draw, flush draw or two pair and if you do hit two pair there definitely will be plenty of action as for draws galores for the straight.

I would however choose to re-raise with AKs or AQs and definitely pock JJ or better.

Small or mid sized pairs depends I suppose. I usually like to flop the set first before I go pounding in on the action.

[Georgia Peach]

I agree with those who say to call. You're getting a real cheap look at a multi-way pot and with KJs to boot.

[Diplomat]

Hi Vkotlyar,

I question the pre-flop raise because:

1. If you flop a hand worth drawing too, you will be getting correct odds by just calling pre-flop rather than raising. Even if you flop a gutshot, a flop call is fine for one bet.

2. If you do re-raise you make the pot very large, and some hands that were not worth calling the flop -- when there had only been two bets pre-flop -- can now almost correctly call the flop (for example, someone trying to spike a set) that you would like to see gone. Ironically, you have sited this reason as a motivation for three-betting. Although they may have long-shots, when the pot is this big you want to be eliminating opponents, not hooking them into the pot.

3. There are many flops you would prefer to checkraise rather than bet. One example is when you hit a jack and you are fairly sure people will call one bet, but perhaps not two bets. It is very difficult to three-bet pre-flop and then checkraise the flop unless someone else caps pre-flop.

So I'd just call pre-flop.

As for whether or not high suited broadway cards are worth a cap, meh, I dunno. It is still just a suited one-gaper, no matter what pictures are on the cards, and it is very likely dominated. I prefer to get in as cheaply as possible in these situations and save the cap for aces, kings, queens, and AK (although not always).

-Diplomat

[vkotlyar]

Most of you have advised not to raise in this situation because i am out of possition and because my hand is probably dominated. From my posts, you can infer that i play my hands very aggressively. For just one small bet, i can find out about the strenght of UTGs hand. His call will show me that he doesnt have a hand that plays well multi way. If he has AKo, he cant possibly cap it. However, if he has a hand like AQs, he will probably put in an extra bet. Since i put in an extra bet preflop, it will be mush easier for me to determine if my hand is good on the flop in the event that i it comes K or J high. I can bet out, and if raised by UTG, can quickly get away from the hand. The 3 bet gains me information in a huge multiway pot. Also, big suited cards play very well in such a large field, so i do not feel that i am loosing EV on this bet.
I like to play poker on the edge. If my raise is break even, i will most certainly raise. i dont care about fluctuations. all i know is that when the dust clears, i will come out ahead. Because i am capable of 3betting w a weak hand, i get plenty of action when i 3bet with a strong hand. i keep my opponents guessing, and that makes me dangerous. i had guys call me down with 22 on a 57QKA board. they remember the time when i turned over my hand....8 high sir..can u beat that? /images/graemlins/smirk.gif
vitaly

[elysium]

hi vk
the problem isn't that you will miss hitting your hand, the problem is what happens those times that you hit your flush or straight or two pair? this is something that might come up on some of those rare occasions. and as you watch helplessly as the turn and river counterfeit and double counterfeit you, giving someone else a stronger hand that you get into a raising war with, combined with the number of times reraising pre-flop tells your opponents that you are extrememly powerful and you hit your hand, bet and they flee (you weren't eight high after 3 betting), or you want to trap so you check and they check behind allowing a free-card that this holding can't tolerate, well, without getting into the gory details,i think it makes better sense to fold when facing a raise from that lousy position with that lousy holding. you need to see some of this chit ahead of you vk. the KJ is deep do-do.

[Diplomat]

I do not think you can infer much about utg's hand when you three-bet pre-flop. If you assume they are a reasonable player -- and I think you do think that, given that you figured him to be selective with his cap -- there is not much more info you can garner. He might call with JJ-88, AK-AT, etc.; but then again, he easily might cap these hands to build a massive pot if he hits. The same goes for AA-QQ, AKs, and AQs...or even KQs, QJs, JTs.

The other problem is that it does not really give you any information about the 19 cold callers between you two raise-aholics. No one in their right mind is going to fold here, and they easily could have any of the above hands (although probably not AA or KK). So I miss the argument about information.

Also, it must be a mistake to cap betting pre-flop eight ways, flop top pair, bet a pair, and fold to a raise. It absolutely must be. Must. Even if you are sure you are against aces, you cannot fold. Even then, a pre-flop raiser may raise the flop with a hand you are ahead of, simply to force out other players. Then you've made a huge mistake and folded the best hand in a 32-small bet pot.

The other bad situation is when you end up having capped pre-flop and flop nothing. Say you flop nothing except overcards -- now you might chase those overcards drawing very thin or dead, paying multiple bets to get there, because of the pot size. The possibility for compounding errors is huge.

You advocate a run and gun style that may win some large pots, and perhaps make you a winner in these games. But I think you need to start thinking about your variance and the value of these plays if you intend on playing higher limits, and/or against tougher opponents.

-Diplomat