How's my play with QJo?

[Henke]

Hi all!
This is my first post, so please be patient /images/graemlins/smile.gif I know QJo is a problem hand, but could you please give me some input to my play? (I've included spoiler/opponents hands at the end of the post). Btw, thanks Slavic for the hand decoder!

Party Poker 0.50/1 (9 handed)
Hero has J/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif and is BB

EP1 limps, MP1 limps, MP2 limps, Button folds, Hero limps, UTG checks

Flop(5 SB): T/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif

Hero bets, UTG folds, EP1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 folds

Turn(6 BB): 8/images/graemlins/club.gif

Hero checks, EP1 checks, MP1 checks

River(6 BB): Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif

Hero bets, EP1 raises, MP1 3-bets, Hero folds, EP1 calls

-----
Hand 2:
Party Poker 0.50/1 (10 handed)
Hero has Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif and is SB

UTG limps, EP2 limps, MP2 raises, Button folds, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG calls, EP2 calls

Flop(9 SB): J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif

Hero checks, UTG checks, EP2 checks, MP2 bets, Hero raises, UTG folds, EP2 folds, MP2 calls

Turn(11 BB): Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif

Hero bets, MP2 raises, Hero 3-bets, MP2 caps, Hero calls

River(19 BB): 3/images/graemlins/club.gif

Hero checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls


====== SPOILER =======
1 EP1 straight K high, MP1 straight A high
2 MP2 holds AA for trips.

[Festus22]

Hand 1: I don't like leading out on the river. Just too big a chance that a chase-with-an-ace opponent just caught his broadway. Check/calling might be OK if it's one bet back to you but even then I don't think you're dragging this too often.

Hand 2: Fold PF. Out of position against the field after a raise with QJo - not a pleasant scenario.

[lil']

Hand 1 - I think you could bet the turn here. Your opponents have not given any indication they have anything, and you have 10 outs to improve. You also don't want to give a free card to a gutshot draw.

The river card is helping you, but it probably helped someone else more, since the gutshot just came through.

Hand 2 - Easy fold pre-flop. You have an excellent chance of making second best hand in that spot. Your hand is likely dominated.

[Joe Tall]

Hand#1

I'm confused to what the action is...did UTG post or something? How did you 'call' in the BB? You checked your option correct?

Hand#2
Fold preflop.

Welcome to the forum,
Joe Tall

[Henke]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand#1

I'm confused to what the action is...did UTG post or something? How did you 'call' in the BB? You checked your option correct?


[/ QUOTE ]

Very observant of you! Think there might be a small bug in the Slavic hand decoder. I'm supposed to be on SB, not BB... Will look through the output better next time.

[ QUOTE ]
Welcome to the forum

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you!

[Henke]

Thank you all for your fast answers! I won't make the mistake of calling with QJo from BB again /images/graemlins/smile.gif
However, as a follow up question, if the raiser is a loose raiser, would this advice change? (E.g. all fold to button, who raises).

Thanks,
Henke

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
if the raiser is a loose raiser, would this advice change? (E.g. all fold to button, who raises).

[/ QUOTE ]

If you suspect a steal w/any-2, I'd 3-bet. Just remember, QJo is cheese and it's moldy-cheese out of position.

Peace,
JT

[lil']

I won't make the mistake of calling with QJo from BB again
Were you in the SB or the BB? This thread is all messed up...

It's a worse call from the SB, but either way it's a fold most of the time.

[Henke]

Should have been SB, sorry... /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[eh923]

What's this mystery hand decoder that you've mentioned? Does it parse a hand history into a more readable format? If so, I'd love to have it too!

[Henke]

It's Slavics hand decoder, found on
www.team-skilz.com (http://www.team-skilz.com/).
I found it on a link on crockpots webpage
www.winningonlinepoker.com (http://www.winningonlinepoker.com) (follow the link "Guide to the 2+2 forums).

[Rico Suave]

Hey Henke:

QJo has been a problem hand for me. I generally only play it from late position for one bet. That being said, I agree with the rest of the crowd that in hand 2, you should fold to the pre-flop raise.

However, while everyone agrees about folding pre flop on hand 2, no one commented on the actual play of the hand and I was interested what others thought. FWIW, I do not like the flop check raise. I understand you are in a position to try and shut others out of the hand, but all you have is middle pair and a backdoor straight draw, against a pf raiser with an A on the board. I am not sure that being aggressive here is the right play. I would be more inclined to check call (you have odds for your 5 outs, if you think they are good) or check fold. But I am a bit weak tight sometimes /images/graemlins/grin.gif

On the turn, I do not like your 3-bet. He does not seem all that impressed with your flop c/r and then your turn bet. When he raises your turn bet, what hands do you think he has that you can beat (that warranted a pf raise from a reasonable player)?--AK, KK, KQ. What hands beat you?--AA,QQ,JJ,AQ,AJ. (Is this too narrow a range of hands to consider from a decent MP who raised after 2 ep limps?) I certainly do not advocate folding here...I am calling this to the river here every time, but I am not sure I like the 3- bet.

I was disappointed that more people did not comment beyond the pf call. I hope others will, 'cause I may be way off here.

--Rico

[Henke]

[ QUOTE ]

However, while everyone agrees about folding pre flop on hand 2, no one commented on the actual play of the hand and I was interested what others thought. FWIW, I do not like the flop check raise. I understand you are in a position to try and shut others out of the hand, but all you have is middle pair and a backdoor straight draw, against a pf raiser with an A on the board. I am not sure that being aggressive here is the right play. I would be more inclined to check call (you have odds for your 5 outs, if you think they are good) or check fold. But I am a bit weak tight sometimes /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree the checkraise is debatable, but I was a bit paranoid from the "first" hand above (same session), and I didn't want to make the mistake of not getting hands like KJ and KT out if I managed to make my hand.

[ QUOTE ]

On the turn, I do not like your 3-bet. He does not seem all that impressed with your flop c/r and then your turn bet. When he raises your turn bet, what hands do you think he has that you can beat (that warranted a pf raise from a reasonable player)?--AK, KK, KQ. What hands beat you?--AA,QQ,JJ,AQ,AJ. (Is this too narrow a range of hands to consider from a decent MP who raised after 2 ep limps?) I certainly do not advocate folding here...I am calling this to the river here every time, but I am not sure I like the 3- bet.


[/ QUOTE ]

You are probably right, but a short analysis shows there are 26 possible AK, KK, KQ, and 17 possible AA, QQ, JJ, AQ, AJ. But then on the other hand, would he raise the turn with AK, KK and KQ? Probably not with KK and KQ, so that just leaves 12 possible hands I could beat that he might rerasise with /images/graemlins/crazy.gif, so then you are right. Well, lesson learned! (I hope).

Thanks for your reply!
//Henke

[GuyOnTilt]

If all fold to the Button who raises, and I'm in the SB with QJo, I 3-bet without hesitation.

In Hand 1:

You played fine until the turn, where I would've bet out. In an unraised pot, nobody usually has a K. I would think I still most likely have the best hand, and if not, I have plenty of outs. On the river, I would've check-called to induce a bluff. Since you bet, would you have folded to a single raise?

In Hand 2:

Muck preflop. Since you didn't, I check-fold the flop. Save your chips for better situations.

GoT