89s in the BB

[Saborion]

1/2. Loose passive. 9-handed.

I`m dealt 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif in the BB.
EP1 limp, EP2 limp, EP3 limp, MP1 limp, MP2 limp, SB complete, I check.
7 to the flop.

[T /images/graemlins/club.gif K /images/graemlins/heart.gif 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif] 3.5 BB.
EP1 bet, EP2 call, EP3 call, MP2 call, I call.
5 to the turn.

T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif [T /images/graemlins/club.gif K /images/graemlins/heart.gif 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif] 6 BB.
EP1 bet, EP2 call, EP3 call, MP2 raise, I fold and the rest call.
4 to the river.

6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif [T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif T /images/graemlins/club.gif K /images/graemlins/heart.gif 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif] 13.5 BB.
Checked to MP2 that bet, EP1 call, EP2 call.

It would`ve cost me 4$ on the turn, and it was 21.5$ in the pot. So I had enough for the flushdraw. But, my flush draw were 9 high, and it was possible that someone already had filled up. Not to mention that I could`ve been raised by EP1 as well. Was my turn fold a bad fold?

MP2 turned over KK for the turned boat.

[eh923]

Ignoring the results, I think this was a horrible fold. I say that because:
- Your read about this being a loose-passive table seems right on.
- The pre-flop action does not indicate a large pocket pair such as KK or TT. To be afraid that there was such as hand would be paranoia. Of course, 55 would be very reasonable from this crew.
- As you said, you had the proper odds to cold-call the turn. However, you didn't factor in the likelihood that the other 3 people would call the raise. A call was more than worth the risk of a turned boat.

Results show that you were right this time, but do you really feel that given the same situation, you would repeatedly make the same decision? It sounds like a negative proposition to me.

eh923

[Saborion]

4 other people in the pot. Someone else might draw to a better flush. Someone might have a boat already. Someone might get a boat while I get the flush. I knew there were people behind me that with 99 % certainty would call that raise, giving me better pot odds. But I have to hit a heart to get my flush, and even if I do, I might lose. Is this really such an obvious call?

[rkiray]

I normally don't start worrying about big flush draws or full houses until I see more action than this. MP2 played horribily. Especially not Raising pf. Many times I would check raise the flop with a hand like yours, but that's a better play with a aggresive table. With a table this passive I think you should have bet the flop.

[lil']

I would put the turn raiser on a ten and call.

[Saborion]

I did put the turn raiser on a T.

So even though it`s only 9 high you`d call this down?
9 high being the reason I didn`t bet/check-raise the flop. Also wrong?

[eh923]

[ QUOTE ]
4 other people in the pot. Someone else might draw to a better flush. Someone might have a boat already. Someone might get a boat while I get the flush.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's all true. But playing that way is just plain chicken. You won't always have the luxury of a cinch hand, but since the reward is worth the risk, go for it! Also, did you really see enough action to warrant a fold?

[ QUOTE ]
But I have to hit a heart to get my flush, and even if I do, I might lose.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you miss the flush, you won't have to call a river bet. What matters is that on the turn, the odds deserved a call...and more specifically a crying call if you might not have the best hand. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Is this really such an obvious call?

[/ QUOTE ]
I can't fathom saying "no" to this. Perhaps if it was capped by the time it got to you, but not for 2 bets with 3 limpers just itching to call.

eh923

[Aces McGee]

Hi Saborion

With only three flush cards on any board, the odds of a higher flush draw being out there aren't good. Any time you lose a flush to a higher flush in that situation (where you are using three board cards and both hole cards), ask yourself why you didn't lose more money, because you probably should have.

Also, why are you worried about a higher flush on the turn, but not the flop?

As for the boat possibility, sure, it's out there, but as other posters said, the preflop action didn't lend itself to KK or TT, and the flop action didn't scream top two pair, either. No reason to fear the boat yet.

Bad fold.

McGee

[eh923]

I'd have a tough time throwing away any "3-on-the-board" flush. It's just so rare to lose to a higher flush in that case (of course, 4 on the board is a different story). The board would have to be scary (such as being paired twice or AAKxx), or the action really heavy before dropping a made flush.

[chesspain]

Saborian,

I'll go against the grain (ouch /images/graemlins/grin.gif) and say that your fold wasn't so bad. Although I might well have called the turn bet, I like your thinking, assuming you actually went through the analysis at the time.

Indeed, you are correct that you need to be concerned about a boat. Curiously, I don't think that hands like TT or KT are unfathamable, especially given the early limping. In addition, while it is unlikely that someone has a higher flush draw, all that limping would make me a little nervous. Moreover, given that hero had no way to know whether the turn might be raised after him, I don't believe it's unreasonable to want better than 5:1 immediate odds when calling this bet.

[Saborion]

I always were afraid of a higher flush, hence why I didn`t bet out on the flop.

But a 9-high flush is ok then. Even good enough to bet/raise with at the flop given 3+ callers?

[Saborion]

Ok, that was too tight. Lesson learned, stay tuned for another hand.

[brian0729]

There is now two votes for folding being ok. You may be getting the odds to call but I think your implied odds are very poor and could easily sway this to a fold. You do have to consider all things you did even if you do fill. I also think the turn is the telling round, there are three callers and a raise in front of you the best you can hope to do is the 6th nut flush or something like that on the river. I am not sure I could fold this everytime but I wouldnt be beating myself up for it when I did even when the flush does come. There are better spots to invest two big bets imo.

[Aces McGee]

[ QUOTE ]
I always were afraid of a higher flush, hence why I didn`t bet out on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

But you called the flop bet.

McGee

[Saborion]

Yes?
I was the combination of the possible boat and higher flush, and possible re-raise behind me that made me fold that hand. If the board hadn`t paired, I wouldn`t have folded to a raise I think. You guys made me understand I was being too tight. But it wasn`t just the raise that made me fold, it was the combination of all things. I said it in other posts, I think I see monsters in the closet a bit too easy, and I`m working on it. I was not sure this was a good fold, else I wouldn`t have posted the hand. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I mean, if you`re unsure you have the best hand or not, wouldn`t you go to a showdown with it? If you`re not sure you have the best flush, wouldn`t you call it? I really cannot understand why you`re stuck on my flop call. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Aces McGee]

I'm not "stuck" on your flop call. I'm trying to help you think critically about the way you played the hand as a whole -- and to get you to use your own thought process to do so.

My point was that folding on the turn is silly if you're doing it because you're afraid that your flush, if you hit it, is no good. And I was illustrating that by pointing to the fact that you called the flop, obviously not afraid of two bigger hearts. The turn was bet and raised, but none of that should make you fear a bigger flush draw.

If you are going to fold here, fine, it's closer than I originally thought (I misread the action -- even so, I'd call), but don't do it because you're suddenly worried about two better hearts.
McGee

[southerndog]

I think a flop check-raise would have been sexy.

I don't think the fold was horrible.

I think this is a good question for one of the experts
on the site though.