AKs in BB

[Saborion]

Loose, mostly passive 1/2. 10-handed.

I`m dealth A /images/graemlins/club.gif K /images/graemlins/club.gif in BB.
EP2 limps, EP3 raises, MP1 cold calls, button cold calls, SB completes, I 3-bet, EP2 folds, EP3 4-bet and everyone calls.
5 to the flop.

[7 /images/graemlins/club.gif A /images/graemlins/heart.gif T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif] 10BB.
SB check, I bet and everyone calls.
5 to the turn

3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif [7 /images/graemlins/club.gif A /images/graemlins/heart.gif T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif] 12 BB.
SB check, I bet and everyone calls.
5 to the river.

A /images/graemlins/spade.gif [3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif A /images/graemlins/heart.gif T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif] 17 BB.
SB check, I bet, EP3 and MP 1 calls.

[Joe Tall]

Well played!

I 3-bet w/AKs out of the BB when there is a family pot. When AKs hits, it hits big, so you get the money in preflop when there are multiple players that will call.

Nice hand, nice post, hope you pulled it off,
Joe Tall

[morgant]

I would be very tempted to checkraise the flop with so many opponents, and maybe weed out some drawing hands...is that appropriate. once you bet the flop, is a check raise on the turn much harder to pull off?

I was thinking, a checkraise will probably not get rid of any hands due to the size of the pot already, but would it not be appropriate to pump the pot even more?

[PokerNoob]

I also really like the 3-bet.

How about going for the checkraise on the flop? Or is straightforward play best a microlimits? Or does it scare off the calling stations and actually cost you money (the five calls on the turn and the two on the river)?

Do you checkraise on a more drawing oriented board to scare off/charge extra the drawers? Or do you checkraise to charge the dominated hands more? Or both? What are the appropriate conditions to checkraise this hand from BB?

[Joe Tall]

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I would be very tempted to checkraise the flop with so many opponents

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Morg,

Did you notice how many callers Sab got on the flop and the turn? Why would you want to check-raise and possibly shut out many 1-bet callers? If you c/r this uncoordinated flop you represent your monster hand and players will fold. Some will become reluctant to call you down to the river and you will earn less.

[ QUOTE ]
and maybe weed out some drawing hands...is that appropriate.

[/ QUOTE ]

What types of hands are drawing on a AT7r board? Not too many. Bet, bet, bet, worse hands will call.

[ QUOTE ]
once you bet the flop, is a check raise on the turn much harder to pull off?

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Why are you so stuck pulling off a check-raise. Granted, when I was a new player, I LOVED to c/r, LOVED IT! Then I realized that I was losing potential callers that would not believe that my hand is a monster when I just bet it and then I started making more money in loose games.

[ QUOTE ]
but would it not be appropriate to pump the pot even more?

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Didn't Sab get 5, FIVE!, callers to the river??!?!? How much bigger could the pot be?!?!?

Welcome to the forum,
Joe Tall

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you checkraise on a more drawing oriented board to scare off/charge extra the drawers?

[/ QUOTE ]

Bingo.

Read my post to morg.

Peace PN,
Joe Tall

[Homer]

If you three-bet preflop out of the BB and then check on an Axx board, your opponents will be likely to check the hand through if they don't have an Ace, which is a catastrophe (unless you somehow know that the SB will take a stab at it on the turn and you can then raise and face the field with two bet pressure). If someone does have an Ace, they will likely raise your flop bet, so I would bet out and hope to be raised so that I could three-bet. This will be more likely to clear out the field than a check-raise, and if it doesn't, you've set yourself up for a possible turn check-raise.

-- Homer

[Saborion]

The thought occured to me, but unless the original pre-flop raiser had bet the flop, I`m not all that sure anyone else would`ve. And that is not good.

When someone is overly aggressive, many people at these limits (or maybe I should say this site) tend to turn into passive mode. Now we had two players raising and re-raising pre-flop, which would put lots of these players into this passive calling mode. As you saw. If I had knew the players better, check-raising would`ve been a preferable play, yes.

[Saborion]

On these limits you won`t scare any drawing hand away. Most of them are not familiar with things such as pot odds. All they see is "There`s two hearts there, I have two too, a 9 and a 7!", sort of. I actually see these people raise with LOW flushed when they hit it on the river. Doesn`t matter if the board pairs. They will not fold.

But of course I prefer to c/r when there`s possible draws out there to at least make it more expensive for them. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Saborion]

[ QUOTE ]
Morg,

Did you notice how many callers Sab got on the flop and the turn? Why would you want to check-raise and possibly shut out many 1-bet callers? If you c/r this uncoordinated flop you represent your monster hand and players will fold. Some will become reluctant to call you down to the river and you will earn less.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm... That is something I haven`t given much thought. Ah, always learn something new around here. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Homer]

Did you notice how many callers Sab got on the flop and the turn? Why would you want to check-raise and possibly shut out many 1-bet callers?

I disagree with check-raising, but not for the same reasons as you.

His reason for contemplating a check-raise is that the pot is already huge (10 BB's preflop) and he would like to do whatever is possible to protect his hand. All kinds of hands are correct to call one bet on the flop, getting upwards of 21:1. Gutshots, bottom pairs, hell even a couple of backdoor draws might be worth a call. However, a lot of these hands are correct to call not only one, but two bets cold. Because of this, you can't do much to protect your hand on the flop. A check-raise is likely to be called by a few players, and rightly so. Also, a check-raise attempt will get checked through if no one has an Ace, and even then a weak Ace might check it through because three-betting preflop from the BB, then checking on an Axx board is suspicious. The best chance you have of protecting your hand is betting and hoping to be raised so that you can three-bet.

What types of hands are drawing on a AT7r board? Not too many. Bet, bet, bet, worse hands will call.

Getting 21:1 or more, the following hands could be correct to call a single bet:

KQ, KJ, QJ, 98, J9, 86, Ax, Tx, 7x, pocket pairs (somewhat questionable given the possibility of AA being out there already), etc.

Why are you so stuck pulling off a check-raise. Granted, when I was a new player, I LOVED to c/r, LOVED IT! Then I realized that I was losing potential callers that would not believe that my hand is a monster when I just bet it and then I started making more money in loose games.

Check-raising is, and will always be, fun. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Incidentally, to answer his question, it will be easier to check-raise the turn if you lead out on the flop instead of check-raise. However, this doesn't necessarily mean that check-raising the turn is proper. It could be, depending on your opponents, but it might not be.

-- Homer

[J.R.]

Homer said what I was gonna say in a less clear and more verbose manner, but suffice to say in am not sure TP/TK in a big pot with many opponents is "a monster", as your hand is vulnerable and the pot odds justify all kinds of thin hands hanging around for one bet on the flop.

[Joe Tall]

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Also, a check-raise attempt will get checked through if no one has an Ace, and even then a weak Ace might check it through because three-betting preflop from the BB, then checking on an Axx board is suspicious

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This I failed to mention but I intended too.

[ QUOTE ]
His reason for contemplating a check-raise is that the pot is already huge (10 BB's preflop) and he would like to do whatever is possible to protect his hand. All kinds of hands are correct to call one bet on the flop, getting upwards of 21:1. Gutshots, bottom pairs, hell even a couple of backdoor draws might be worth a call. However, a lot of these hands are correct to call not only one, but two bets cold. Because of this, you can't do much to protect your hand on the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

80% players in the 5/10 Kill game at Foxwoods wouldn't even know what hell you are talking about here. Pot odds to them are when they find oregano mixed in with their weekend smokes. I bet because I know worse hands will call.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[JTG51]

I disagree with check-raising, but not for the same reasons as you.

There's one more reason that I'm surprised no one mentioned (at least I didn't see it). The likely flop bettor (EP3) is directly to Saborion's left, meaning a check raise won't force anyone to call 2 cold. They'll all be calling one bet, then one more, which would tie players to the pot instead of knocking them out.

If the likely flop bettor was the button a check raise would be more tempting, but as Homer pointed out everyone is likely getting the odds to call 2 cold anyway, so you won't be forcing them to make a mistake.

[Homer]

80% players in the 5/10 Kill game at Foxwoods wouldn't even know what hell you are talking about here.

I know, they suck.

I bet because I know worse hands will call.

It doesn't matter if they know what I'm talking about or not. Whether they are correct by accident or because they are knowledgable is irrelevant. Any player who will pay four bets to see the flop with the hands I mentioned will take one off with them on the flop.

It's not always quite as simple as "I have the best hand, so I bet". This is especially true as the size of the pot increases.

-- Homer

[Homer]

Excellent point. I wasn't even paying attention to the relative position of the other preflop raiser.

-- Homer

[Homer]

Homer said what I was gonna say in a less clear and more verbose manner

This statement could be construed two different ways.

So, either "Thank you" or "Homer cry now", depending on which way you meant it. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

-- Homer

[morgant]

i agree i tend to attempt the check raise too often and have been betting out thanks to the forums but. i dont see my AK as a monster. there are gutshots who will call, open end straights, and pairs with backdoor flushes. since many hands have the proper odds to call my raise i feel it would be an optimal play to eliminate 1 or 2(overly optimistic) callers. and the early posistion player capped preflop, is that not indicitive of a MONSTER, yes it is low limits but that should not hinder the theory of the hand. Check to him and see what kind of strenght he has, raise him and see if he fires back? just trying to iron out some of my thought processes...i imagine you took down the pot due to the rest of the action but am curious as to what the players were holding...
-morg

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
There's one more reason that I'm surprised no one mentioned (at least I didn't see it). The likely flop bettor (EP3) is directly to Saborion's left, meaning a check raise won't force anyone to call 2 cold. They'll all be calling one bet, then one more, which would tie players to the pot instead of knocking them out.

If the likely flop bettor was the button a check raise would be more tempting, but as Homer pointed out everyone is likely getting the odds to call 2 cold anyway, so you won't be forcing them to make a mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

Holy $hit, he lives.

I did notice this but I got so wound up taking on the beer guzzling nuclear plant worker that I neglected it.

Thank you for your time and consideration,
Joe Tall

[rkiray]

I don't have anything to add to the debate. Just wanted to say I think this is an excellent thread and this forum seems to be off to a great start.

[J.R.]

As if it need be said, but you're the concise, clairvoyant one.

[Saborion]

My hand was good. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[PokerNoob]

Excellent thread, its very educational to read all the responses. I guess one of the conflicts that does arise is 1) are you playing microlimit to learn how to play poker at higher limits with little risk to your bankroll, or 2) to maximize profit. Playing so that you have a bunch of calling stations that don't exist at higher limits come along on your hands may accomplish the second goal but not the first. The other problem may be that you actually aren't learning anything because the microlimit player behavior doesn't parallel higher limit player behavior, e.g. the cap with nothing, reraise your checkraise with nothing, etc. The "Let's Gamble!" gang.

On this hand, you've got a five way cap preflop. As has been pointed out, all but the very wildest draws have the pot odds to hang around, even if they know it or not, checkraised or not. And hang around is what they did, all calling flop and turn bets. If you checkraise, you 1) get more money into the pot when you are arguably ahead, and 2) possibly scare off drawers who actually have the odds to call and go on to draw out on you! The downside is that you may scare off drawers who don't hit the hand that beats you and you lose their turn bets.

Also, its been pointed out that the hero and the preflop capper trap the other 3 players between them. Isn't this a good thing for the "get more money in when ahead" scenario? I think the majority of these people are going to keep throwing in one more. The pf raiser might even reraise you with a lesser hand before (possibly) coming to his senses on the turn.

What did the callers have on the showdown? Don't tell me somebody had A3s or something and quietly called all the way.

[Saborion]

Unfortunatly I cannot see what hands they had. Think I`m gonna mail the site and point out that it sucks.

And regarding your dilemma when learning how to play for the higher limits, I think that will be natural/obvious through the transgression between the limits.

[CORed]

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How about going for the checkraise on the flop?

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In my experience, in microlimits, if you raise preflop, very often no one will bet into you, so checking after a preflop raise is uusually a mistake.