ethics of unmucking

[Dylan Wade]

I was just curious the rules for asking the dealer to expose a hand that a player mucked at the showdown. I realise this probably varies from casino to casino, but I am actually more interested in the unwritten ethical rules that apply.

Some old lady kept asking the dealer to reveal the hands of players who mucked their hands at the showdown. I just thought it was very bad manner, but I'm still pretty new. Am I right to think this is BS even if the house allows it? Don't you showdown in-order, or are you supposed to showdown all at the same time?

BTW.. I understand asking to see the hand of the player first to act if he hesitated to showdown.

[baggins]

a muck is a muck. the only legitimate reason to ask to see the hand after it has been mucked is when you suspect collusion. otherwise, it's a bogus angle. and it's bad for the game of poker. i'd complain if it gets out of hand...

[Aces McGee]

It's my understanding that once a player calls the final river bet, their mucked hand may be shown if a player requests it. This is why most online poker hand histories have the pocket cards of all players who called to the showdown.

I don't see this as bogus at all. You paid for the information at showdown, so you have every right to it.

Aces McGee

[slavic]

There's not a lot you can do. Once you call or are called on the river the hand has to be shown if requested. If the other player requests it I think he's foolish. Most of the time though it's someone not in the hand who folded early on. I don't like it but what can you do? I tend to slide my cards into the muck but they can still be found.

[Tyler Durden]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see this as bogus at all. You paid for the information at showdown, so you have every right to it.

[/ QUOTE ]

It depends on what you mean by this. If someone bets the river and I call and their hand is good AND they want to see my hand, that is total B.S. Poor ettiquette and adding insult to injury.

[baggins]

that may be your understanding. and technically, you are correct, that is the way the rule has been abused into practice.

however, the intention of the IWTSTH rule is to avoid collusion. you paid to see the winning hand, not all the hands. if somebody mucks, then it is poor etiquette to ask to see their hand for information.

[Martin Aigner]

Tyler,

I agree that it´s poor etiquette.

I´d sure would tell the person, who requests the showing of the hands that it´s very impolite to do so. If, like in the original post stated, it´s an old lady, who makes the request every other hand, I might add some example like: "Would you think it´s impolite of me if I belched at the table?" I guess she would agree that she wouldn´t like it, so I would tell her that requesting the showing of the hands would be in poker about as impolite as belching. I´m positive that she wouldn´t do it anymore.

If the person continues to make the request I´d probably ask to see her/his hands everytime he/she is involved at the showdown.

Best regards

Martin Aigner

[Mangatang]

Here's an interesting idea, albeit a risky one. Next time you have a winning hand, heads-up against this old lady, after she shows down, look at her and muck your cards (make sure they don't actually go in the muck though).

Then when she asks to see the cards, the dealer will turn them up and looky here, you take the pot from her. That should teach her.

Although, it would really hurt if she didn't ask to see the cards that particular time and you lose what was your pot.

[slavic]

Yea I've thought about how you would pull this off several times. To me it's just too risky. Even if it comes off perfect, your still at the mercy of the floor making a choice on who gets your pot. If you tried to explain it to the floor they'd likely call you to the carpet for taking a shot at the game. Just not good Karma.

[Mangatang]

[rkiray]

I believe Bob Ciaffone has a story in one of his books (I think it's the Pot-limit/No-limit book, but I may be wrong). Where he asked to see a hand after he folded on the river and two people went to showdown. One guy had screwed up and mucked the winner. The "winner" who became the loser, is a good friend of Bob's but never lets him forget this becaue it was a huge pot.

If someone asks to see my cards two or three times (I let the first one go). I start asking to see his cards every time he goes to showdown. Sometimes I even tell the dealer to just always turn his hands over. Since I'm much tighter than most players, and I think I can use the revealed information better than they can I think this is fine. After the other guys cards have been turned over 3 or 4 times I ask if they want a truce. I've only had to do this twice since most people have better manners than this.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

This usually doesn't bother me. I figure if they have to keep asking, they can't figure anything out anyway.

What I would do if it persists (besides asking myself why the hell I keep calling river bets with losers) is to ask the person, "Why do you think I'm cheating?" I would bet that when asked this question, most people would get offended and say they didn't think anything of the sort. At that point I'd ask the dealer (or the floor) to explain the reason for the IWTSTH rule. I suspect that would end things.

[rkiray]

I tried that once at the Mirage, and the dealer didn't help me, he just said their rule was that anyone at the table could ask to see anyone hand that showed down for any reason. You did not have to suspect cheating.

BTW, I checked the Ciafone story. It is in the pot limit/no limit book. It was an $8000 pot. He actually didn't describe the player as a friend, but he did say the guy mentions it to him every time he sees him.

[pauly2x]

Everywhere I've played, if you muck a winner (which I have done, unfortunately) you still lose. It's my understanding that in most poker rooms, once the dealer touches your cards (when you release them face down into the muck), your hand is dead.

So if you throw in your cards in an attempt to show somebody up, you'll just make yourself look stupid. Mucking is the same as folding. I tend to toss them into the muck and the dealer usually sweeps them up pretty quickly.

If somebody pulls the IWTSTH rule on me and I still have my cards in my hand, I usually stall as long as possible, whine as much as possible and ask the inquisitor why they want to see my hand. "I thought you were a player, you should be able to put me on a hand. What do you think I have?" If it's a place I haven't played before, I wouldn't hesitate to ask for a manager to clarify the rule before I show my hand. The point, of course, is to slow the game down as much as possible, in hopes that people just won't ask anymore.

[Mangatang]

Your casino must play under different rules than I'm used to then. If someone asks to see a called hand, even if it's been mucked (as long as the cards are recoverable), the best hand still wins. Check out the previous post about the Bob Ciaffone incident.

I don't recommend trying this trick, I just thought it would be funny if you could pull it off.

[CrackerZack]

Foxwoods rule is, if a live opponent asks, your hand can win, if an observer asks, the dealer "kills" the hand but touching it to the muck, then reveals it, and it can no longer win.

[Vehn]

[ QUOTE ]
Foxwoods rule is, if a live opponent asks, your hand can win, if an observer asks, the dealer "kills" the hand but touching it to the muck, then reveals it, and it can no longer win.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the rule here as well.

Just this weekend I observed this phenomen in action:

3am $15/$30 game. PAG (Phishy Azn Guy - I tell it like I see it) raises UTG. He plays a lot of hands but I think his EP raising requirements are pretty tight. SuperPAG coldcalls in MP. Tight semiaggressive seminitty on the button thinks and 3 bets. I fold in the blind. UTG 4-bets and both call. The flop is K high with 2 clubs, UTG bets and both call. The turn is a 3rd club, UTG bets, MP calls, button thinks for a while and folds his jacks or whatever. The river is a small club putting 4 clubs on the board but pairing the board. UTG bets, MP raises, UTG calls. MP shows A3o with the Ac. UTG mucks his hand. Button IWTSTH's him, the dealer picks up his cards, taps it on the muck and turns them over. Two kings. Oops?

[CrackerZack]

Wow. That really sucks. I think insta-tilt would ensue. Either that or I'd get up and go home.