Shorthanded PLO

[tewall]

What hands are worth betting on the flop 3 handed? Raising? Same for the turn.

Thank you.

[Graham]

Bit of a vague question there, tewall, but I'd love to see some responses to a thread on short-handed PLO. That's a part of my game that's definitely weak. Esp if it came from some folks like Ray and fossilman, who no doubt have some experience in more rarified PLO atmospheres.

I don't really feel like going into a short-handed game myself right now, just to get some hands to post, however... /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

As a first thought I guess you'd have to put prime importance on getting a handle on how your opps play the weaker/middling type hands on teh flop, eg how much they're willing to call with or splash around with 2 pair or open enders....yes, yes...now I'm being vague...I know.

G

[tewall]

The general question is what's a good hand? In a full ring, you want nut hands, or draws to such, but short-handed you can't play that way, obviously. So where do you draw the line? Obviously this would depend on the opponents style of play, and blind size, etc., for which I intentionally left the question vague, as any answers would be appreciated, with details filled in as desired.

[tewall]

I'll try providing more info, and see if I get a response.

Say the blinds are $3/$6 and average stack size is $500. Opponents are a bit call station ish.

Same question with $5/$10 blinds and $10/$20 blinds, which to repeat for convenience is, what hands to you bet on the flop, and what hands do you raise? I'm thinking primarily in terms of for value.

[Zeno]

At 3-handed, any large pocket pair - Jacks or better, even with bad side cards is a raising hand, at any blind structure. There, that's a start. Let's see if anyone else will chime in and agree with me or disagree. At least something might get going.

-Zeno

[tewall]

Thanks Zeno.

My thinking is that Jacks or better would be a betting hand, not a raising hand. But I asked the question because I'm really up in the air about this (i.e., I don't know what I'm doing). I appreciate any info.

[Acesover8s]

[ QUOTE ]
At 3-handed, any large pocket pair - Jacks or better, even with bad side cards is a raising hand, at any blind structure. There, that's a start. Let's see if anyone else will chime in and agree with me or disagree. At least something might get going.


[/ QUOTE ]

While I think you're right here, I would raise with every hand I'm going to play 3 to 5 handed.

I think the key to PLO is playing your opponents (as long as we're not talking about loose online only bet the nuts games).

In short handed PLO, on the flop I bet any decent draw (nut flush draw or openender with a pair), top two from early position, etc. On the button I would bet one pair if I thought there was a decent chance my opponents would give up. Which is why I think its important to raise preflop in this game. If you can isolate against 1 or 2 opponents and then pick up the pot when they don't hit you're going to be a long way ahead. Best yet, when you do hit a strong hand and they hit a lesser one you're in for a lot of action.

As far as turn and river play , you need to watch who is a bluffer, who is a strong reader (and who THINKS they are a strong reader). You have to be prepared to fold your Q-high flush against some players and bet it into others. Keep an idea of how others view you. Don't always slow down on the turn just because they called you on the flop.

Someone mentioned it in another thread, but I'll bring it up here too. If this is a live game, I always straddle 3-handed, and usually 4-handed as well.

[tewall]

"Best yet, when you do hit a strong hand and they hit a lesser one you're in for a lot of action."

Thanks for the input. A couple of thoughts. First of all, I think the above sentence is key. I want them to be chasing me with worse hands, because that's where I think the edge is. But I don't know what's a good enough hand to be betting for value, hence my original question.

"As far as turn and river play , you need to watch who is a bluffer, who is a strong reader (and who THINKS they are a strong reader). You have to be prepared to fold your Q-high flush against some players and bet it into others. Keep an idea of how others view you. Don't always slow down on the turn just because they called you on the flop."

I can't see folding a Queen high flush 3 handed, unless the guy you're playing against is terrible. If he's decent at all, I think you have to pay him off. Flush against flush 3 handed isn't likely enough to happen to throw away your hand, and a Jack high flush would certainly be a raising hand 3 handed, so throwing away a Queen high flush could easily be throwing away the best hand.

[Graham]

In short handed PLO, on the flop I bet any decent draw (nut flush draw or openender with a pair), top two from early position, etc. On the button I would bet one pair if I thought there was a decent chance my opponents would give up. Which is why I think its important to raise preflop in this game. If you can isolate against 1 or 2 opponents and then pick up the pot when they don't hit you're going to be a long way ahead. Best yet, when you do hit a strong hand and they hit a lesser one you're in for a lot of action.


I was about to post what I'd bet on the flop, and see what I got back, but it's not too far off this strategy of Aces, except a tad looser. Say 3/4 handed and in MP/LP, I will in addition often bet a bare open-ender or just top pair if checked to - or even middle pair with a couple of overcards, if I thought my opps might fold enough. At least there's something to fall back on if you're called. If raised, then that's you telt. Getting called behind can be problematic, since you might have the pot taken from you on the turn if you fail to bet again, while you may be hit with a delay raise if you do. Depends on your opponent's trickiness there.

Good point about frequent raising and picking up the missed flops.

I think I probably have the most trouble when my opp(s) begin to get tricky and readily play back on the flop with their own mediocre hands. Then I find I'm giving up the initiative (and some pots) to them.

G

[tewall]

My question has to do with value betting. Assume you're not going to get enough pots by them folding, but you're winning by them chasing. What's a good enough hand to make them chase?

[Graham]

At 3-handed, any large pocket pair - Jacks or better, even with bad side cards is a raising hand, at any blind structure. There, that's a start. Let's see if anyone else will chime in and agree with me or disagree. At least something might get going.
-Zeno


Well, maybe I'm more passive preflop, but I'd likely only raise crummy A's and K's preflop and limp QQcrapcrap and below. But maybe that's too readable after a bit.

hmmmn... if you raise JJ74 3-handed and bet the flop of K83r, perhaps you might have done enough to convince your opp(s) to throw away a paired K...You might talk me round.

G

[Graham]

My question has to do with value betting. Assume you're not going to get enough pots by them folding, but you're winning by them chasing. What's a good enough hand to make them chase?


Well, in general, I'd say flopped top and bottom 2 at an absolute minimum for me to bet and not feel totally crappy about getting called down - tho' not excited about the call. That's going to be a lot of chips for me to feel too good betting through the turn and getting called again, however. Being called down with my holding top 2 would make me suspect a lesser 2 pair or a middling draw, so I'd feel more comfortable with the my bet/his call routine. A bigger hand would raise me unless he's a wimp. Some players may call the flop only with top pair and overcard kickers, so I'd beware an overcard turn.

This is all assuming non-tricky play and jmho.

G

[Zeno]

[ QUOTE ]
What's a good enough hand to make them chase?



[/ QUOTE ]

Damn good question. Some random thoughts -

When very shorthanded in PLO a set on the flop, even bottom set is a good hand. Two pair (Top pair with any other pair) is also reasonable. Bottom straight on the flop is also a good hand.

This is why, in my opinion, having any two pair, say 8866, is a raising hand in any position if very shorthanded.

That said, care is needed as position and board texture play an increasingly important role in the game.

It does get interesting if say you have two bottom pair and a draw to the bottom end of a straight on the flop. Is this hand worth playing and raising with? Short-handed PLO is a very challenging game.

-Zeno

[tewall]

Do you play short-handed PLO/8? If so I'd be interested in any thoughts for the same questions.

From my own thinking about it, I thought top 2 pair is a raising hand and top pair is a betting hand.

I think you have to be really cautious with a bottom straight. Not so much so with a flush, however, as I think it's less likely you're against another flush than that you are against another straight. I'm not sure about any of this, but that's how it seems to me.

[Zeno]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you play short-handed PLO/8?

[/ QUOTE ]

I do not play PLO/8 at all. I do play limit Omaha/8 for smaller stakes (4/8 , 6/12)

I should also note that my short-handed pot-limit Omaha hi experience is with a larger blind structure (usually at least 5/10) and large stacks of money. You can bully more with position and money than in a smaller blind structure game etc. Anyway, I think we got a pretty good discussion going and did air out some interesting thoughts. Whether "right or wrong ideas' it was good to do.

There are so many factors that go into the short-handed game that experience is the best teacher I think. You have it get in and wade around, you will get stuck and sink a few times but that happens to everyone.

Straights are ugly things in PLO hi, in a full ring game a bottom straight is usually worthless (sometimes even the nut straight on the flop is trash), with 5 people dangerous, with 3 people playable but always suspect.

OK. I think I’m done. Others can elaborate, agree or disagree etc.

Thanks for starting the thread.

-Zeno