More debatable preflop raising!

[1800GAMBLER]

1/2, $200 buy in. Most have it. I've just sat and got 66 in the BB. 6 limpers to me and i min raise.

Comments?

[1800GAMBLER]

This raise i don't really like. I like it for some reasons, but dislike for stronger reasons, i'll give them later when others have posted.

[ZeeJustin]

There are 3 reasons to raise here.
1. You build the pot so if you hit your set you win a lot.
2. You set yourself up for a bluff on the flop, although this won't work much.
3. You create deception.

However, I do not like a raise here. The main reason is because if someone limp-reraises you, you have to fold.

Also, if you check, and the flop comes 6-rag-rag, you are in a great position to check-call the flop, and check-raise the turn, but if you raise preflop, this play loses it's value as people are less likely to bet into you.

[JoeAbrams]

Like a poster has said, reasons for raising include building a pot in hopes you hit your set, and setting up a bluff at the flop.

I think both are out of the question, perhaps you could argue for either point if you had position, but you're out of position -- I think you check down your option, see the flop, and get out cheaply if you miss.

Now, if you had position, I think a raise would be ok for the reasons stated above.

just my opinion..

[1800GAMBLER]

Small pocket pairs are a hand in which position matters this much:

| <---> | imagine a bug's penis for an actual sized drawing.

But when most players slowplay their set, it matters this much:

| <-------> |

[ballerman]

From my personal experiences, I do not like to min raise any hand after limpers. The only time i will min raise is when I'm first to open. The reason why i don't like that play is because some shortstaked idiot might raise all-in on an attempt to buy the pot, causing you to fold.

[JoeAbrams]

When you're talking about raising your small pocket pairs and the reasons for doing this, position matters a lot more than you think(obviously)

[Al_Capone_Junior]

in a limit game, sure, perhaps a value raise is in order now and again when there's six or more limpers. But in NL you are asking to get reraised BIG, and in these online games, there are plenty of idiots out there who will limp-reraise with AQ, JJ, 88, 33, A7o, etc, in ADDITION to any legit limp-reraisers with AA or KK who might be out there. Tho you might be ahead of them, you're sure going to hate it when you have to make a decision for a big raise because you couldn't leave well enough alone and just take the friggin' free play already.

Small pairs should either lose you a LITTLE or win you a LOT. Both those options are in jeopardy when you get burned by getting fancy in NL with small pairs.

al

[Guy McSucker]

Small pocket pairs are a hand in which position matters this much:

| <---> | imagine a bug's penis for an actual sized drawing.


I'm laughing, but I am disagreeing too.

Position is pretty important with small pocket pairs. This is actually a key example of one of the benefits of position with a good hand.

If you hit your set, in position you can see more readily how to play it. For example, in the BB, do you check or bet out? You don't want everyone to fold but you'd like to get money in the pot early because you don't want them sniffing your huge hand when you reveal your slowplay. Hmmmm not sure what to do. On the button you can make a more informed decision. If people are getting interested in the pot, put some chips in; if not, maybe let them catch up a little.

Can't tell you the number of times it has come A-6-3 and everyone has folded to a bet. Boo.

But, as usual, I don't quite see what you're getting at, Jay, so can you elaborate some more? Why does other players' propensity to slowplay make position more important?

Guy.

[1800GAMBLER]

Fark. Where did i meantion my reasons for raising? The only reason it could matter is setting me up for a postflop steal and min betting and having the whole table recall isn't going to set me up for anything.

[1800GAMBLER]

If i had 8 limpers to me who doesn't like the raise then?

[Al_Capone_Junior]

For all the reasons I already mentioned, I still wouldn't like a minimum raise here. I HATE minimum raises in NL, that's well known. Now a REALLY LARGE raise here and I might like it.

al

[1800GAMBLER]

But if you bet and everyone calls you are making money.

[1800GAMBLER]

By saying 'reason' there i mean reasons for raising not about position. I can't edit it now.

'The only one of my raising reasons that could matter is the postflop steal...'

[ZeeJustin]

[ QUOTE ]
But if you bet and everyone calls you are making money.

[/ QUOTE ]

By this logic, your hand is +ev to be all-in in this situation. In other words, if you shoved knowing that everyone would call you, it would be a great play. However, I think that you are overvaluing your 66. Just because your odds are better than 8-1 of hitting your set, doesn't mean your odds of winning are better than 8-1. There are flushes, straights, and even higher sets that could take your stack.

The bottom line here, IMO, is that your minimum raise shows too much strength. If a 6 flops, you won't get the payoff you want, and your only chance of bluffing at a flop w/ an A or a K is if no one made a pair of A's or K's. This is very unlikely with this many opponents. In other words, your bluffs will have only a very slight ev if you bluff perfectly, and aren't worth the preflop raise.

[1800GAMBLER]

Deal out cards, select 7 callers and enter all of them in twodimes. It's rare 66 wont have pot equity of 0.125.

[Zag]

[ QUOTE ]
But if you bet and everyone calls you are making money.

...

Deal out cards, select 7 callers and enter all of them in twodimes. It's rare 66 wont have pot equity of 0.125.

[/ QUOTE ]

So what? Betting the minimum doesn't guarantee that everyone is now going to check it down to the river. Almost 2/5ths of that equity is the 6 hitting on the turn or river, and you won't get there because you can't call a bet on the flop. (Also, who said that they were random hands? Even the worst online players will fold 72o preflop.)

A raise with 66 after limpers can make sense on the button (but not a minimum raise -- yeeeeecccchhh) because you can make money both by hitting your set and sometimes by bluffing at an ace-high/king-high (but draw-less) flop that is checked to you. Are you going to have the stones to bluff from the BB position with 5 people to act after you?

Let's look at it another way. 66, especially out of position, is a hand that badly needs implied odds to be worth playing. You have gone from having infinite implied odds (the free play) to something significantly less than infinity. Even if you count your BB as a "bet" then you have just cut your implied odds in half.

I think that the fact that you want to make this raise here tells me that you have a lot to learn about the value of position.

[ZeeJustin]

I agree 100%

[Jon Matthews]

I don't know... I'm for the raise in a sense.

Understood about the equity argument, and that's opened my eyes to a couple of things as it is, but it's clearly a mix-it-up play isn't it? If it's not then I'm also critical of it but as far as I can see that's what it is. Equity doesn't have as much a place in tricky no limit play as it does with limit which is where that all originates isn't it? As in cards going to the showdown more often type thing?

My take is, he's going for his set and not much else. The bluff isn't an option. Since usually he raises big or just plain plays proper, he could still almost have a random hand here above, say, 70 on the sklansky-karlsson scale and now the pot is twice as big as it would have been so it can be pumped more easily if he hits.

It's not so bad to be out of position with a set, nowhere near as bad as with drawing or more vulnerable hands. I don't think it warrants a tirade, all poker tactics are personal and open to criticism and some are more suited to the person than others, like this I think.


Jon.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

for another example...

if you have 87s and have just a flush draw on the button, and the SB bets and you're getting 4.3:1 to call, you are getting the odds you need to see the next card, plus a little more. However, aren't you doing better if you get a free card and infinite odds?

being out of position makes NOT taking infinite odds when you have the chance to much worse. Sure, some plays are +EV, but sometimes otherplays are moreso.

al

[tewall]

I think the raise falls in the small favorite/big dog category, with a different application. That is, IF everything went just right, it MIGHT be slightly +EV to raise, but if things go wrong, they can go very wrong. For example, someone could raise, you fold, and a 6 flops. There's more risk on the downside than potential on the up side. That's what people are saying.

I haven't noticed any tirades.