Is this obvious to you

[zcahv82]

I thought I would post this hand as I thought it was quite interesting, and to see whether I played it correctly or not.

25NL party poker. I don't know anyone on the table
1st hand In.
I post the BB and get J /images/graemlins/heart.gif T /images/graemlins/heart.gif. UTG limps in, all fold to the button who raises to 2.25. SB calls, I call ( mistake?) and UTG calls. Surprising they all have me covered, with the Button having over $100.

So the flop brings Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif K /images/graemlins/club.gif 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif.
I quite like the flop. SB checks, I check thinking the btutton will bet out and to get a bettor understanding of the table. UTG checks and Button bets the Pot $8.55. I put him on AK or AA. Didn't think he had KK or QQ, SB calls, I decide to raise all in($22.75) my open ended draw.( mistake two?)
Both Button and SB call. Turn brings a wonderful 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif, completing my striaght. Both SB and Button check. River is a K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif /images/graemlins/crazy.gif. But they both check through, and I win the big pot. Button had A /images/graemlins/spade.gif Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif, and SB had Q /images/graemlins/club.gif6 /images/graemlins/club.gif

Firstly did I play this corretly?

Recently, everytime I go all in, I get the hnad history and put it through two dimes, to see how I was doing at every point. So when I did this to the following hand, I was very surprised to see the results. Without cheating, at the Flop,
which hand would you prefer. Obviously you would choose the hand with the greatest EV. But I was quite surprised to find out the results. The results where not obvious to me.
Results in next post.

[zcahv82]

Putting through twodimes the EV results were as follows

pokenum -h th jh - as qs - qc 6c -- qd kc 2c
Holdem Hi: 903 enumerated boards containing Kc 2c Qd
cards EV
Jh Th 0.171
As Qs 0.368
Qc 6c 0.462

I couldn't believe the results. I would have thought AQ to be a big favourite, then Q6s but only a little favourite to JT from the flop. Obviosly got a lot to learn.

Thanks in advance

[PSS]

Obviously, you have 5 outs (-redraws, of which there are still 9), and Q6s has 11 outs of which 9 are almost unbeatable. The AQ has 16 cards it doesn't want to see, 14 of which it has very little or no re-draw to, so the results make sence with 2 cards to come.

In retrospect (and knowing the cards) it's easy to critisise your play and say the all-in was poor (but we've all made this play before, or at least I have). What did you think you were up against - if it's the flush draw then you know that you only have 6 outs for the all in (unless you think you can get a weak flush draw to fold, which at that size game I doubt.) If not it's still marginal as you have to hit an 8 outer

Phil

[Jon Matthews]

I would have folded that preflop, mainly because of position.

He should have raised more preflop, that was the reason he lost $25 there.

Since you're in and SB has called the pot bet you're getting 3:1 so you may as well call. All in is fine but I prefer calling as this is a hand which you can make and still get paid off with, unlike a flush.


And for the EV, on the flop a pair and flush draw would be doing the best I would have thought, followed by AQ, followed by the open ender?

Jon

[nicky g]

A pair and a flush draw is a strong hand, especially heads up. Second pair and flush draw is a slight favourite over top pair; if the money's not too deep, it's a great NL hand to push in with heads-up, as you not only are you (very slight - but still) favourite but you'll often take down the pot there and then.

[Acesover8s]

The all in play is quite bad in this game. The only time I will use the all in with a draw is when:

A) I'm drunk (more often than I wish)
B) A huge hand like straight flush draw or flush draw with overcards that are bound to be good (almost never happens)
C) Against players who are capable of laying down 1 pair.

This game or hand does not qualify for the latter two, although I probably was drunk while you played it. I would not like that flop very much and would be hesitant to call much of a flop bet. How much will you like your hand when the Ace of clubs hits?

[nicky g]

") I'm drunk (more often than I wish)
B) A huge hand like straight flush draw or flush draw with overcards that are bound to be good (almost never happens)
C) Against players who are capable of laying down 1 pair.

This game or hand does not qualify for the latter two, although I probably was drunk while you played it."

Lol. I was probably drunk too, so it's not like he didn't have a good excuse.

[Acesover8s]

[ QUOTE ]
This game or hand does not qualify for the latter two, although I probably was drunk while you played it."

Lol. I was probably drunk too, so it's not like he didn't have a good excuse.

[/ QUOTE ]


The really unfortunate thing is that with the time lag between us, you were either up too late, or I start drinking way too early.

[zcahv82]

Thanks for all your replys, you guys know your stuff.

I thought the button was on AK, thinking be would have raised more preflop if he had a Big PP( altough being the first hand, didn't know how he played at all /images/graemlins/crazy.gif)
When the button bet the pot, and the SB called, all I thought was I had the 3:1 odds, and would have been a profit in the long run(obviosly not,from looking at the EV). I didn't even think twice or even care about what the SB had, probably where I am going wrong.
I knew raising all in wouldn't make anyone of them fold, as was effectively raising it by the pot($22 raise on a $25 pot). The reason I went all in was I hate calling such a large raise on the flop, only to fold on the turn, so I thought it was a Raise all-in/fold situation. I guess the All in would have been bettor if my cards were over cards on a straight draw. Thanks again.

[tewall]

So what's the concensus? He should call the flop and fold the turn? Does it make any difference if the flop is a rainbow instead of 2 suited?

[Jon Matthews]

Call the flop, all in on the turn because he made his straight with 9s.

With a rainbow flop, the same play but you gotta wonder what's coming with you for that money if they're not flushing.

[tewall]

Well given that he made it, I guess folding would be bad. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[dsm]

Hi, i'm kinda new. Could you tell me what "Putting through two dimes" means?

thanks

[Acesover8s]

[ QUOTE ]

Hi, i'm kinda new. Could you tell me what "Putting through two dimes" means?

thanks

[/ QUOTE ]

When I was in school it was slang for making a payphone call, before every kid had a cellular phone.

Now it means using the EV calculator at this web site:

www.twodimes.net/poker (http://www.twodimes.net/poker)

[dsm]

no/m

[FishyWhale]

[nicky g]

"So what's the consensus? He should call the flop and fold the turn? "

I think he should fold the flop. We seem to agree that all-in isn't a good play. My view of calling is as follows: With a bettor and a caller it's quite likely he's up against a flush draw (as it turned out), reducing his outs to 6, and there isn't much money left if he hits one of his outs on the turn. Obviously if he misses the turn, he has to fold to a bet. If he calls the flop bet he'd be getting 3-1 on a 6-1 shot of making a straight next hand, and worse if someone has a flush draw (not to mention negative implied odds should he make a straight while someone else makes a flush), so he'd have to be pretty sure he'd win a fair bit more money every time he makes his hand. If there was more money left it might be different, as his outs are reasonably well disguised and he just might take down a lot of money against a set or top 2 (for instance, here an ace would make him his straight and AK top two). But still, lone straight draws generally aren't great hands in NL with or without 2-flushes out.

[James282]

If you offered me any three of these holdings, Qc6c with the flush on the board would be the best by far..let's examine why:

We have seen 9 cards, that leaves us with 41 unseen--so it's a lot different than drawing with 47 cards unseen.

The following needs to happen for the JT to improve:
one of 3 9s, or one of 2 aces...the club of each will improve the Q. He could also improve with runner-runner trips if they weren't clubs.

For the AQ to improve, he would need 2 aces in a row, as one more ace improves the JT..he could also hope to hit a runner-runner straight, I suppose.

For the Q6s to improve, he needs any of the 9 clubs remaining, any of the 3 6s remaining...he has 12 outs, and with only 41 cards to be seen, and the fact that AQ can basically not improve, and the JT only has 5 outs(barring a very rare circumstance of runner-runner trips), he becomes a slight favorite to win the hand. Now if I hadn't seen anybody else's cards, and you offered me these three hands while I somehow forgot that I had seen the others, I would probably choose the AQ if you promised me somebody didn't have a king. However, I would probably fold the AQ to an all-in raise in the first place /images/graemlins/smile.gif
Anyway, the AQ needs no one to improve, the JT needs 5 outs, and the Q6s has 12, so this makes sense.
-James