NL holdem - Is this a bet? - You Make the Call

[Rick Nebiolo]

The game is a small buy in no limit holdem game where many of the players normally play limit.

Player A is first to act on the river and grabs his only stack of about 25 chips and quickly pushes them straight out in front of him as far as his arm will go. He holds onto his chips. Player B immediately pushes in an even bigger stack to call. Player A now pulls back his chips and says "I didn't release my chips so I'm not betting".

The floor is called. What is the proper decision? In making your decision, cite which rule and rulebook you are using (e.g., the Ciaffone or Caro/Cooke online rule books, your local casino/card barn rule book, etc.) or just state that your decision is based on what makes sense, what your experience tells you is right, or what seems fair.

Just curious....

~ Rick

[Guy McSucker]

In some UK cardrooms there is a "betting line". Once you move chips forward over the line, you have bet those chips.

In our local cardroom, there is no line on the tables, but the same principle is applied, and an imaginary line is, errr, imagined, around the point where people have their cards. If you move chips forward past where your cards are, you have bet those chips.

So if we apply these rules, that's a bet. Unless he has really short arms.

Guy.

[nicky g]

I think it's an obvious bet, though the dealer should have intervened to tell him to let go of his chips.

Guy, has your screen name always been GuyMcSucker? I could have sworn it used to be Guy McCusker, but I misread things a lot. Have you changed it, or am I imagining things as usual?

[drudman]

Foxwoods has a line, and in any B&M that's a bet baby as far as I'm concerned. In my home game however it's like chess... no move is for real until your hand is off the chips, or you say "bet".

[Zag]

That is cheap angle shooting and the bet would count in any casino in the country.

In a home game, however, you have to make accomodations. If I really believed that the person was thinking and not angle shooting, I would push to let him take his bet back -- especially if he was generally a big donator to the game. We don't want to chase him off, now, do we?

Probably the compromise I would end up with is that the rules say (sound good and confidant, just like back in the days when I was a professional umpire) that he should forfeit all the chips, but, since this is a friendly game, we will allow him to pull back half of them. This is obviously not a "correct" ruling by any standard (she's a little bit pregnant), but will probably mollify people enough that we can get back to playing.

[Guy McSucker]

Hi Nicky,

Guy, has your screen name always been GuyMcSucker? I could have sworn it used to be Guy McCusker, but I misread things a lot.

No misreading here. You're right. I changed it for comedy value. Not very funny I know.

Guy.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

If I read your post correctly, after moving the stack forward, he held onto it for some noticeable period of time, at which point the other guy called.

If that's what happened, I rule it a bet. If the guy complains, I tell him either it was a bet, or he was shooting an angle. I then inform him that in my room we don't allow angle shooting, and if that's what he was doing, would he please be so kind as to leave?

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[tewall]

It's pretty funny, given your real name.

[Mike Gallo]

Rick,

At my casino they would consider it a bet. He crossed the "line".

[Rick Nebiolo]

Everybody,

Thanks for the replies so far.

Consider this: For no limit the Los Angeles Rules AS PRINTED are very close to the Bob Ciaffone online rules (Bob worked on the common rulebook in 1997). Here is a link to Bob's Rules:

http://www.diamondcs.net/~thecoach/RobsPkrRules3.htm

Two more questions:

1) Assuming these rules are in force, do you stick by your answers so far?

2) With so many newcomers playing small buy in no limit, do you see a problem with these rules?

More later tonight....

~ Rick

[Greg (FossilMan)]

Well, since the rules state "A wager is not binding until the chips are actually released into the pot", then I would not be able to rule against this player who did not literally release his chips.

However, I would give him a warning, and inform him that any more angle-shooting would get him removed from teh premises.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[oneeye13]

if you were looking for a specific answer, why didn't you say so?

[Rick Nebiolo]

The actual hand came from the baby ($2-$3 blinds with a fixed $100 buy in) no limit game at the Bike where I was filling in as host. I simplified the story to get some sense of how you guys think it should be ruled or would be ruled.

I’m inexperienced at no limit so as a player I am a “careful beginner” (in the above example if I were player B I would wait for player A to move his hands back to his lap before calling). But most people aren’t as careful and vulnerable to being angled. It seems to me when a guy clearly pushes out his entire stack it should be a bet of his entire stack. But the rules AS WRITTEN indicate the chips must be released to count as a bet. Somehow the rules and the spirit of the rules seem disconnected. But I don’t have enough experience to see it clearly and state why.

In Los Angeles there are at least three card clubs that now spread small, restricted buy in no limit games. These games are lots of fun and attract players who are just getting into no limit. For the most part they run well. But it seems the betting rules should be clear-cut and the players should be protected from angles.

Player A in the lead post is normally a limit player and the most extreme case of the type of guy who plays like a maniac and loses a fortune but gains the satisfaction to compensate for his losses if he can occasionally angle a pot or even a collection. For example, a while back at another casino I saw him lie his way through three straight time collections (claiming he was a new player) AND keep his name on top the must move list!

In the actual hand Player A took his grip off his chips by about an inch (per my testimony, later verified by camera) and the players at his end of the table claimed he said “all in”. So it was easy for the floor to rule that his bet played. But my senses told me that the players believed the bet stands even if he never released his chips. And of course it seems it should, especially if your background is from limit.

We have a betting line at the Bike but it is for ergonomic purposes only (i.e., it encourages the players to push in their bets so the dealer doesn’t have to reach). In limit forward motion determines a lead bet. Some have suggested that a betting line might be appropriate for these little no limit games, even if we don’t use it for limit.

More later when I’m a little less tired. And any further thoughts are appreciated.

Regards,

Rick

[Greg (FossilMan)]

[ QUOTE ]

It seems to me when a guy clearly pushes out his entire stack it should be a bet of his entire stack. But the rules AS WRITTEN indicate the chips must be released to count as a bet. Somehow the rules and the spirit of the rules seem disconnected.

[/ QUOTE ]
It is extremely difficult and maybe impossible to write rules on this issue that achieve both goals (bright-line consistency and keep the game within the spririt as intended).

[ QUOTE ]
But it seems the betting rules should be clear-cut and the players should be protected from angles.

[/ QUOTE ]

But the rule you have already is clear-cut. There is no bet until the chips are released. If the event had actually occurred as you originally posted, it wasn't a bet. It just smelled and tasted like a bet.

Even if you use the betting line, people can (will?) angle it. I aggressively move out a stack of chips, release them, and sit back looking at you. You are probably going to respond in some manner, even though I did NOT move those chips past the betting line. Again, it's not a legal bet, even though it tastes and smells like a real bet.

As far as I know, the only way to deal with these situations is to give the ruling you have to give, but warn the angle-shooter that if he engages in future actions that are so clearly angle-shooting he is going to be asked to leave the room. And, of course, you have to be willing to follow through on this threat.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[nicky g]

No, it's funny, and obviously not remotely accurate. It's just that's the kind of thing I do all the time. I didn't know you could change your name. Hmm.... (need a lightbulb smiley here)

[Guy McSucker]

it's funny, and obviously not remotely accurate

Would you mind talking to my bank manager about that? He is getting tired of my explanations.

Guy.

[nicky g]

Sure, just as soon as mine lets me out of the basement. I've told him I won't play poker any more but he just doesn't believe me.

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
Even if you use the betting line, people can (will?) angle it. I aggressively move out a stack of chips, release them, and sit back looking at you. You are probably going to respond in some manner, even though I did NOT move those chips past the betting line. Again, it's not a legal bet, even though it tastes and smells like a real bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Robert Turner advocated the betting line for pot limit/no limit and indicated they used it in many private games or games he played and solved most problems. "Al Jay" Ethier (of Stu Ungar's nightmare "head up no limit freezeout against Al Jay with no blinds no antes nightmare" fame) countered with your point that the betting line didn't really solve much as players can move just short of the line to get the response above.

[ QUOTE ]
As far as I know, the only way to deal with these situations is to give the ruling you have to give, but warn the angle-shooter that if he engages in future actions that are so clearly angle-shooting he is going to be asked to leave the room. And, of course, you have to be willing to follow through on this threat.

[/ QUOTE ]

This makes sense. In this case, Player A actually tried to run out of the room with the chips that constituted his bet. He was in fact barred (and Player B made good).

With so many new players playing the game, perhaps a nearby wall chart/poster with an abbreviatted version of essential no limit rules should be displayed. It might look something like this (I just did a quick two minute chop job on the Ciaffone Rules so this is barely version .8 /images/graemlins/smile.gif )

ESSENTIAL NO LIMIT BETTING RULES

1. The number of raises in any betting round is unlimited.

3. All raises must be equal to or greater than the size of the previous bet or raise on that betting round, except for an all-in wager.

3. A player who has already checked or called may not subsequently raise an all-in bet that is less than the full size of the last bet or raise. (The half-the-size rule for reopening the betting is for limit poker only.)

4. A wager is not binding until the chips are actually released into the pot, unless the player has made a verbal statement of action.

7. A player who says "raise" is allowed to continue putting chips into the pot with more than one move; the wager is assumed complete when the player’s hands come to rest outside the pot area. (This rule is used because no-limit play may require a large number of chips be put into the pot.)

8. A bet of a single chip or bill without comment is considered to be the full amount of the chip or bill allowed. However, a player acting on a previous bet with a larger denomination chip or bill is calling the previous bet unless this player makes a verbal declaration to raise the pot.

9. If a player tries to bet or raise less than the legal minimum and has more chips, the wager must be increased to the proper size. The wager is brought up to the sufficient amount only, no greater size.

END CHART

Anyway, if we do a chart it needs to be edited and chopped a little more ;-).

Regards,

Rick

[Bob Ciaffone]

There is a long-standing controversy between Nevada and California on when a wager has been made. Generally, Nevada uses the rule that chips must be released for a wager to be "officially made," whereas California has used rules such as breaking your stack or putting a hand holding chips into the pot. But whatever method is used at limit play when the amount of the wager is fixed, the bigbet poker rule has always used the rule that a wager is complete only when the chips have been released (unless there is a verbal statement of intent). It is difficult to compel a bet when the amount supposed to be wagered may well be unclear.
One should wait until chips have been released before taking action behind a wagerer. If the player behind jumps the gun, the bettor is not obligated to make the bet. Good players know to protect themselves by not taking premature action, although it is not that unusual to see a rookie err. It is obvious that if one ruled that the wager must be made when there is a premature call, this would encourage the next player to act prematurely if he wished to induce the wager to be made. We do not wish to encourage such behavior.
All this said, it is not proper behavior for a player to wave a bunch of chips around in the pot area hoping to get an indication of an opponent's intentions, or to deceive him into acting prematurely. It cannot be told from a description of the incident whether the bettor had malice
aforethought or simply excellent reflexes. If the former, it would be all right for the floor to take some sort of disciplinary action (other than requiring the entire wager be made) to punish this breach of etiquette.
I have extensive experience with the use of a "betting line" at pot-limit to prevent this sort of incident. By demarking the edge of the pot, it becomes more clear if a wager has actually been made or if a string-bet has occurred. We used a betting line at the old Sundance Cardroom in Las Vegas in the early eighties when Billy Onorio was the Cardroom Manager. The betting line eliminated problems of this nature, and had no drawbacks in practice. I endorse the use of a betting line and think it would be helpful in preventing such incidents in the future.

[Rick Nebiolo]

Bob,

You wrote: ”There is a long-standing controversy between Nevada and California on when a wager has been made. Generally, Nevada uses the rule that chips must be released for a wager to be "officially made," whereas California has used rules such as breaking your stack or putting a hand holding chips into the pot. But whatever method is used at limit play when the amount of the wager is fixed, the bigbet poker rule has always used the rule that a wager is complete only when the chips have been released (unless there is a verbal statement of intent). It is difficult to compel a bet when the amount supposed to be wagered may well be unclear.”

Your explanation makes sense of why the rule is written as it is.

”One should wait until chips have been released before taking action behind a wagerer. If the player behind jumps the gun, the bettor is not obligated to make the bet. Good players know to protect themselves by not taking premature action, although it is not that unusual to see a rookie err.

With the explosion in big bet poker, especially smaller, restricted buy-in games, most of the table seems to be rookies ;-).

”It is obvious that if one ruled that the wager must be made when there is a premature call, this would encourage the next player to act prematurely if he wished to induce the wager to be made. We do not wish to encourage such behavior.

All this said, it is not proper behavior for a player to wave a bunch of chips around in the pot area hoping to get an indication of an opponent's intentions, or to deceive him into acting prematurely. It cannot be told from a description of the incident whether the bettor had malice
aforethought or simply excellent reflexes. If the former, it would be all right for the floor to take some sort of disciplinary action (other than requiring the entire wager be made) to punish this breach of etiquette.”

Elsewhere in the thread is a description of what actually happened and this guy’s MO. He was an angle shooter. When the decision didn’t go his way (in the actual incident he did release his grip on his chips, but barely) he tried to run out of the game with the chips. He was barred and the amount of the called bet made good by the house.

The games I’m seen or been in haven’t featured many angles, so this incident stood out. Naturally our goal is to help protect players from “moves” such as this. In my case I’m not that experienced, which is why I’m posting these questions.

I changed the facts to having the bettor hold onto his chips before taking the chips back (when he saw he was going to be called) to see how most would rule. I wondered if experienced players would make the decision based on what they thought was right or the rule as written. As you probably know, your online rulebook and the Commerce/Bike/Hollywood rulebooks read essentially the same on no and pot limit, given your role in authoring both.

”I have extensive experience with the use of a "betting line" at pot-limit to prevent this sort of incident. By demarking the edge of the pot, it becomes more clear if a wager has actually been made or if a string-bet has occurred. We used a betting line at the old Sundance Cardroom in Las Vegas in the early eighties when Billy Onorio was the Cardroom Manager. The betting line eliminated problems of this nature, and had no drawbacks in practice. I endorse the use of a betting line and think it would be helpful in preventing such incidents in the future.”

There are others who favor a betting line for these small no limit games so we or another club may try it. In our casino a line is already painted on the table, but it is there for ergonomic purposes (i.e., to encourage the players to push in their bets and cards). How to implement a betting line correctly for no limit would be a good topic for a new thread. A good idea poorly implemented rarely works out, but the same idea thought through beforehand can be made to work.

Thanks for your response.

Regards,

Rick