To go pro or not, and where?

[2ndGoat]

I really couldn't figure what category to post this in, moderators feel free to move it! Post is a bit long, but I'd really apreciate honest advice from anyone willing to read through it...

A few weeks ago I turned 21, and to celebrate, my parents took me to Altantic City (my first *legal* session there) where I met a couple friends from New Jersey, and promptly ditched them all to play some 10/20 hold'em.

Up and down (and way up in the end), but the moral of the story is, I had a hell of a lot better time playing in the Borgota (those waitresses! damn!) than I do in a cube at my current job.

Now, I've just recently graduated college with a genuine degree (B.S. computer science), and I have what is by all standards a pretty good IT job. But 2 months in, I'm already feeling pretty listless at the thought of staying in corporate america for another 2/10/40 years.

On the other hand, I propped online this summer quite successfully, but after playing 25 hours a week for 4 months, I got tired of that too... a bad run lasted long enough to sap my will to play, and it coincided with the start of the 40 hr/wk job.

So it would appear *neither* occupation is really that great a fit for me, but playing live, I felt much more attentive and interested in the game 6 hours into a session than I ever did 90 minutes into an online session. So perhaps I'd enjoy that for longer than the online stint. On the other hand, the end of that last session was an absurdly good run (65 big bets in 5 hours), somewhat coloring my experiences, but I've had other live sessions with different results but a similar mental state.

Now my first question to all of you: In this day and age, where would you go pro? I've only ever been to Atlantic City, and would be sort of biased to set up shop there since I've got all my friends and family on the east coast, but I might also entertain a fresh start elsewhere...broke up with a girlfriend of 5 years a month or two ago, and a lot of my friends have turned into jerks. So vegas, california, or just traveling cross the country like a nomad from oval table to oval table are thoughts too.

Second... what regrets do you pros out there have about the time you've spent in poker? Has it been a lonely profession or have you made good friends as a result? Did you find yourself able to tackle problems like saving for retirement, health care, withholding some taxes from yourself, and getting financing for a house or car? If I did go pro, it would probably only be for a couple years, mitigating a lot of these types of issues, but who knows.

A month ago I started joking to myself about going pro, 2 weeks ago I started entertaining it, and now I'm staring to take the idea just a little bit seriously. Either way I'm pretty sure I wouldn't do it for another 4-5 months, to give my IT job enough of a chance and get a very safe bankroll saved up to start out with, but I'd sure appreciate some advice right now.

Sincerely,
2ndGoat

[TheDuck]

<font color="blue">
I may be out of line here, or maybe someone already said this but it sounds like there are a lot of life changing events occuring in your life right now, and picking up your things and moving to become a professional poker player may be a little... too much too fast.

I don't mean to imply your not good enough to do so, its just that because of all those things, you might just need a little time to think. Everyone hates thier jobs (almost everyone) and I'm in the same spot as you, as I wish I could drop out of college (programming - what is it with us and poker?) and go pro but I know that I'm not ready mentally, physically, financially, etc.

Take time to think things through. Don't hop on the first plane to Vegas, if you do I have a feeling you'll be sorely disappointed. Playing in an actual card room once isn't nearly enough experience, imo.

But if you are serious keep studying, practicing (online or IRL) and make sure its what you want to do. Playing online isn't for everyone, you don't have the poker environment. After all your still in your house and the names on the screen aren't really people /images/graemlins/wink.gif Many people do better at the real tables than online because they can get a better feeling for the game when they are in the actual environment. And your cat isn't jumping on your lap, with the TV blaring when your trying to time your bluffing just right, so PokerStud2003 will fold.

Anyway, I didn't want to discourage you, just make sure you are ready for the change completely. Do you want to move away from home? Are you ok with not having a set steady income? Can you quit the game when your not playing your best, or when you need rest? I'm sure you know all this but I just felt like bringing it up.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

</font>

[bugstud]

This as good a place as any. My personal suggestion is to work for a few months and then vacation/weekend trip it somewhere, whether it be Minnesota, Arizona, Vegas, AC, Foxwoods...somewhere. Go spend a vacation like you would as a pro, and see how it is. Talk to the people on here (email, PM, whatever) that have tried it. I'd suggest going to midstakes given the level you played at AC and see what insight you can glean from them. Whatever you do, good luck...I hope you don't need it.

[slavic]

(programming - what is it with us and poker?)

Hmm - Set Theory, Providing Solutions with Imperfect Information, Statistics, Logic Theory, Pattern Matching.

Ohh I just don't know were the link comes from.

[The Vegan]

Consider these points when deciding whether you should "go pro" before deciding where you should "go pro."

You are young, in a potentially lucrative field with a good degree. I've been there though, and I agree, it can be quite boring and looking at the long run I can see why you are not sure if it's what you want. Consider ditching this job and getting something more flexible. Contract or consulting work with a firm. Don't try to go solo at this point as it is hard to get clients and run a business with little experience.
By getting a more flexible position it opens up more time for you to explore poker as an option, yet still gives you some stability in monthly income.
Please don't consider playing poker as a career until you are ready financially. Unless you prove to be extremely lucky, you will likely go broke if you aren't sufficiently prepared. Then you've been out of the job market for x number of months and potential employers are wondering what you were doing with your life and aren't sure if they want to hire you.
I don't know your full background, but as a 21 year-old who has just entered the job market after college, I can't believe you have a great sum of money. Going "pro" at say the 10/20 level doesn't give you a great income, even if you are a great player. You really should be playing higher than that. I know some people making do at 15/30, but they aren't doing great. 30/60 and above is really where it's at if you want to have an ok income.
Ideally you would get yourself a contract/consulting gig with flexible hours and time commitments and devote the rest of your time to poker. Build up your bankroll while letting the job take care of the bills. Rise through the limits until you are playing 20/40 or 30/60 at a good rate.
At this point you should know if you really want to play poker for a living. If you still feel you want to, then make sure you have at least 1000 times the big bet at your limit. I know you've read all over that you need 300 bets in your bankroll. This is a fine number if you are winning 1 BB per hour and you aren't taking any money out to live on. I strongly suggest a bigger roll for your psyche.

Think on this. You've got 300 times 40 to play in your 20/40 game. That's $12,000. Your monthly nut is say $1500 if you are conservative, but be honest, how much do you want to spend per month? What kind of lifestyle do you want? Chances are you'll want to pull out more than $1500 a month to live on. Even if it's only like $1500 or so, then lets say you go on a losing streak and your $12K has fallen to $8k. Now rent and bills are due and you take out $1.5K. You are down to $6.5K. You are thinking geez, I gotta win. I gotta turn this around. You are fretting a bit and don't play your best. The next month you don't lose, but you only make $1000. You take out your rent and bills again and now you are at $6K. Hopefully things turn around and you build back up, but what if the stress gets to you? What if you can handle the stress but the cards just run bad? Before you know it you've got $4K and you are trying to make a living in 20/40.
By making sure you are financially stable you can avoid some of this. Get rid of any credit card debt, student loans, other loans etc. Get yourself $40,000 before you go pro in that 20/40 game. Now if you hit a bad run it's not going to hurt as much when you still have to pull out that monthly nut. Now your bankroll will be much more likely to grow, than shrink and you can move up through the limits as you get enough money to feel comfortable.

[TheDuck]

<font color="blue"> It was a rhetorical question. /images/graemlins/smile.gif </font>

[J.R.]

but after playing 25 hours a week for 4 months, I got tired of that too...

a bad run lasted long enough to sap my will to play,

I've only ever been to Atlantic City

So perhaps I'd enjoy that for longer than the online stint.

If I did go pro, it would probably only be for a couple years,

I have what is by all standards a pretty good IT job

You have a good job. You have already experienced burnout playing less than fulltime. You have little B&amp;M experience, but hope it will be different than online play. You don't even plan on being a pro for the rest of your life, so you will have to go back into the workforce, but not until your job skills are outdated and your resume has a big time gap in it.

I am biased- I have a job and play part-time, and don't have the stones/foolishness/skill to play for a living, but this seems like a no-brainer decision to me. Playing poker for a living will always be an option in the future, but by dropping from the workforce young, you severely foreclose your future working options, yet you still intend to (attempt to?) re-enter the workforce at a later time. You are foresaking a steady income stream to plunge into the unknown. Good luck if you give it a try, but you lose nothing by waiting, developing your poker skills, saving money, getting job experience, gowing emotionally and becoming more mature (not to say you are immature).

Just some musings.

[AmericanAirlines]

Hi 2ndGoat,
After 20 years of IT, B.S. in Comp Sci and I'm not making "$100,000 a year" in IT, I can agree, IT can suck totally if you don't happen to have the current, in demand, high paying skill set. Even if you did, it's burnout city.
.
So do this.
.
<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>1. As others have suggested, keep your current job.
2. Ease into Pro Poker and establish you really can:
a. earn a living at it
b. not burn out on it
c. can stand the Casino environment 40+ hours a week
d. put up with the swings even a winning player
experiences, and its affects on you.
e. Can deal with a "cash only" existence since you
won't be able to get mortages, car loans etc.
3. If (2) works out for you go pro
4. If (2) doesn't work out for you... plan on career change:
a. Chase something you really want to do. Say
fly jets or whatever.
b. Finish the job of your education and get and
advanced degree that leads to an independant
profession (doctor, laywer etc. I.e. avoid being
a corp. "resource" unit... unless you can get
an Ivy League MBA and join the corp. ruling
class and manipulate drones... er ah "resources".)
c. Accept that life sux for worker bees and
drone on. Get married to a gal who was "convenient,
accidentally have kids, run up the credit cards,get
divorced and so on...</pre><hr />

But do anything not to get trapped in the middle working class suck hole that 95% are in. In 20 years you'll thank me.

Sincerely,
AA

[1800GAMBLER]

Try it? Your job will be there as will other jobs, if you [censored] up once you [censored] up, so be it.

[2ndGoat]

arg, long post eaten by computer. Will try again tomorrow perhaps.

Sincere thanks to everyone that has posted so far.

2ndGoat

[Robk]

Since you apparently don't like either do whatever you think will make you more money so you can get out as fast as possible.

[brad]

youre young answer simple.

play higher limits (20/40 - 80/160)

play big tournaments

keep working

if you manage to win, especially big money (say from tournament) , invest it somewhere where u cant spend it.

keep working and use that money to fund poker.

when u need a break stop playing poker and keep working.

when u get vacation time from work say week or two off dont play poker just do nothing.

[Lou Krieger]

Keep your job for at least a year. Save your money by living below your means -- as far below your means as you can. Save everything abouve what you need for necessities.

The only way to really decide where you want to live and play poker is to visit each locale -- Atlantic City, Las Vegas, Mississippi, Southern California -- and give it a try.

Once in your job for a year, take a 6-month leave of absence or quit it altogether if you think that's the only way to do this. Then visit each potential site and play there. Make your decision that way. But before you do, you ought to have saved at least $15,000 as a playing stake for $20-$40 as well as additional money to live on during your tiral period. Poker is not unlike other small entrepreneurial businesses that fail from undercapitalization. If you are not sufficiently capitalized, you will not be giving yourself the chance you deserve.
_____
Lou Krieger
Raise your game with Lou Krieger, author of "Poker For Dummies" at Royal Vegas Poker.com
http://www.royalvegaspoker.com/lou

[squiffy]

The vast majority of successful people achieve success through hard work, patience, and paying their dues. And as far as I can tell there is no escaping this fact. I work as a lawyer and make a decent living, but certainly do not love my work and would quit in a heartbeat if I hit the lottery.

Sometimes I dream of playing poker or chess full time, not that I have the talent to do that. But from what I can tell, even if you do have the talent, there are a lot of drawbacks to playing poker or chess professionally, that is swings in your bankroll, the pressure of having to win tournaments, etc.

I wonder if any activity, even a fun activity, ceases to be fun if you have to do it for a living.

They say variety is the spice of life. I know when I play a lot of poker or a lot of chess over a long period of time, things start to get stale and the game starts to lose its attraction.

I could be wrong, but after 38 years on this earth, it seems to me that for 99.999% of the population, you need to work to survive, and regardless of what specific field you choose, law, business, engineering, medicine, etc. -- work is work is work. There are pressures and hassles and headaches. And getting to the top of your game takes, time, effort, patience, luck, people skills, experience, study, etc.

But I would say you should definitely give it a shot. You might like it and you might have the natural talent for it. And you might become a great success. On the other hand, if you don't succeed, at least you will never look back with regret and wonder what might have been.

I hated working in large law firms when I first started out and actually quit and went into teaching, thinking I would love it. But teaching was just as frustrating, if not more frustrating than the law, and paid only about half as much money for just as much work and just as much, if not more, frustration.

After 5 years in teaching, I went back to the law, and have finally found a niche in the field of law that I enjoy and that suits my personality. So I would encourage you to think hard about fields that would interest you and to try out a couple of fields, while you are young. But be sure to do some careful research and try to narrow things down to the fields that appeal to you the most.

One clue is looking back on your own resume -- the classes you enjoyed and excelled in, the clubs and hobbies you have had, the kind of work your parents do. If you come from ten generations of doctors, lawyers, generals, actors, football players, chances are good (though far from 100% certain) that you probably have the genes to excel in that field.

I guess my concern is that your attraction to poker, while understandable, is probably not enough to base a career decision on.

I think if you have a degree in computer science, the most logical thing to do is to pursue a career in computers and take poker as a very serious hobby. If you are a programmer maybe you can even work on computer related programs for a gaming company or a gambling company. That way, you have a solid career to fall back on and you can still fund your poker playing. You can gradually start to play at larger and larger limits and if you keep enjoying success at poker, you can always turn pro later.

One danger would be if you overestimate your poker playing ability and devote too much time, money, and energy to a field that may or may not be promising.

My fear is that poker playing is like chess playing and professional sports. I think to make a decent living you have to be incredibly good and make a lot of sacrifices to get there. Whereas I think even an average doctor or lawyer can make a very comfortable living. Does that make sense? Many professions offer comfortable salaries and a steady living even to average members. It may be boring, but its nice to have a steady income, a car, a home, savings, etc. and still be able to play poker and chess on the side and have some fun.

[vic]

"If you are not living on the edge, you are taking up too much space. You may as well jump off anyway!"

I saw this on a shirt once, and it made me laugh and laugh. Life is too short. You seem to be mature enough to make this decision. Whatever the outcome, you will survive it.

I left my IT job 6 months after graduating school to remodel homes. That didn't work out as well as I had hoped, so now it's time to move on to the next thing. What that will be I have no idea, but that's the point. This is an adventure. You are smart enough to know that if you made the wrong choice you can get training in something else and move on. Have no regrets.

[2ndGoat]

Once again, my deepest gratitude to those who have offered advice. I think every post has provided a different angle to consider... and it's definitely a trip to have a respected author giving me advice!

Thanks to those that suggested I do neither my current job or poker full-time, as I havn't really explored any fields other than computers or poker... I'm not going to be flying jet planes, as one post suggested, but perhaps something equally unconventional. Thanks also to those that suggested combining both, programming for a gaming company or the like. Or maybe I can take care of the Borgata's monitors occasionally displaying a windows error message, lol. They've currently got an entry-level opening for an IT guy on their website... hmm...

I was back in Atlantic City this weekend (2nd in a row), and still haven't had a bad session, which would give me a touch more information about how I'd handle the day-to-day beats. I lost $250 in one 5 hour session playing 10/20 last night, but had two of the most gorgeous girls I've ever seen playing on either side of me for a good part of it, so I was in pretty high spirits regardless. (Solid players, too! I told the one on my right if she check-raised me I'd fall in love.)

Something I realized on my own while this thread has been active... I still need to work on my game a lot. I'm quite confident I could take 10/20 at the Borgata for a BB/hr, given my success at slightly tougher games online over a fairly long haul. I've played 15/30 twice, only as a 90 minute exploration both times, and the game ranged from very very juicy (2 players that didn't understand what blinds were or how structured betting worked) to quite tough (5-6 players at the table playing as well as me or better). 10/20 has even gotten a little tough in spots. Ideally I'd like to enter a professional career at 15/30 and move up to 20/40 as soon as practical, and I don't know that I'd make any more money (perhaps less) at 20/40 as I would at 10/20, given my current skills.

Per suggestions and RoR calculations, I'm going to try to put away $15000 over 10 months or so. I expect roughly half of it to come from poker. I'll be living at home for at least a couple more months, which is going a long way towards padding my checking account. In the mean time, I'll be giving my current job every chance to regain my interest, and also looking at what else is out there.

I'll also pledge to make 3-5 hours a week for actual study rather than play; I've been slacking off the last 6 months. I'll use the time to reread the classics (including all the 2+2 stuff, of course) that many more times over, and read some more of the controversial books (with grains of salt on hand) to see what good points they offer (Ciaffone/Reuben and a more in-depth study of super/system, for example)... and I think by reading over those books with a fine-tooth comb to find either fallacies or concepts that don't show up in the games I play, I'll improve as much as I will by by integrating the solid spots of these books into my game. I'll also do a lot of independent thought on hypothetical situations or interesting recent hands played. In addition, I think learning stud would be time well spent... playing hold'em and omaha/8 still only gives me 70% of the games in a card room to work with, and when 15/30 hold'em gets tough, it would be quite a coup to occasionally find a good 15/30 stud game to sit in rather than just a slightly easier 10/20 hold'em table.

After a year, I can then:
-Stay with the current job in DC area
-Get a new job in the DC area
-Get a job in mid/south jersey area, playing live poker as a serious hobby/borderline part-time job
-Get a job in a casino, either in an IT capacity or simply as a poker dealer, maybe part time so I could play cards for 25-65% of my income.
-Play cards full time, starting at 15/30 and the occasional trip to 10/20 to fry a fish or escape the tougher nights.
-Something completely different

Note that I've pretty much decided that if I moved somewhere to play poker either full- or part-time, it would be in Atlantic City, given the friends and family I already have up there. I'd probably take a trip to Vegas at some point, as well as check out SoCal, but I'd need a very solid reason to set up shop outside of AC.

Having 15k put away at the age of 22 will not be a bad thing, regardless... happily I'm about a fourth of the way there already. If I stick it out in DC metro area I can pay off my car loan and have a big enough chunk left for a recreational bankroll. If I go to Jersey, I'll have plenty of startup funds for most any new situation I'd choose (save the extremely outside chance of starting up a business), even if it's not centered on poker.

That's all of the stuff I can decide with my brain. What my heart is saying right now is that I want make my story an interesting one, and not work 40 years just for a nice car, nice house, and nice retirement. I feel myself attracted to a life where my past jobs are fun to remember and talk about, and one where I won't look back at 50 and have a exceedingly acute mid-life crisis because of regrets over chances not taken. As it stands now, if someone asks what do I do for a living, I don't even feel like saying anything more than "computer stuff." I got out of college before I turned 21... hopefully I can afford to do something whimsical for a couple years and go back to safety later on if I want. In the end, if my mind determines poker is a viable option, my heart is what would send me to it. On the other hand, I may find a niche at my current company that satisfies mind and heart both, and if I can stay there with no regrets, that's great too.

For now, I've got a deadline. By August 25th, 2004, I'll have my 15k set aside, and I'll come to a conclusion about all this. I also have some other goals, like working out regularly, which I will have met by then, unless sober judgement (and not apathy!) modifies my plans. Why August 25th? That'll be my one year anniversary at my current job. I'd appreciate it if any of you felt like checking up on me via PM between now and then to keep me accountable for this committment.

Cheers,
2ndGoat

[Leonardo]

I say take a shot at it. I am in the same situation as yourself, completed a Comp Sci degree, and hate it. I have no intention of working in the field, I am taking one shot at poker, with the view of getting into some kind of business(Bill Gates doesnt have a degree, right?). If everything falls through, go take a postgrad degree in something you like (many areas of business give the same kind of excitement (more actually) than poker), then go get a good job or start your own business. You are only 22 for gods sake. If I were u, i would concentrate on being able to play online for large periods of time. There is a lot of money to be made there. Just dont start playing two tables at once in the higher limits, it is trouble.

[SittingBull]

qualify for social security. While u are working,save,save save.etc...until u no longer need to depend upon poker for a living. THEN play poker as long as u want.
In your golden years,u want to at least qualify for social security and medicare benefits. Ten years of work should do it!
Make sure u have your own home --mortgage free. Be able to ALWAYS pay cash for a decent auto.
Have NO dependents EXCEPT yourself. U want your overhead to be as small as possible. Be inclined to do your shoping at the thrift stores and always look for bargains.
Yes,it IS a lonesome life UNLESS u have a friend who will tolerate your needs. One who is capable of being alone for certain # of HRS in the wee morning of the night. This person is RARE!
The MOST difficult part about the game of poker is to have an adequate Psychological bankroll to withstand a loss of several thousand dollars at ANY given session in the higher limit games--AND THEN traveling back home while absorbing this lost!
Playing poker to supplement one's income is great! However,depending upon it for a living generally sucks!
Poker WILL break your heart several times over!
U are obviously an intellegent individual. But are u wise??
HappyPokering, /images/graemlins/smile.gif
SittingBull

[Tommy Angelo]

I always give the same suggestion when this comes up.

JUMP!

As to where, shhh, don't let Lou K. know that the best of everything is in No Cal.



Tommy

[2ndGoat]

I asked for comments from you all 5 months ago (see above) and received what I deemed extraordinarily useful advice- all of which seemed to contradict the post before! (see below)

I thought I'd provide an update on my progress in this area. I figure some of you might like to keep score from home, and this also seems a good way to take inventory for myself.

-I hate work.
I still hate work. I've gone from the "sampler"-type rotation program where I spent 6 weeks in several areas to a full-time position. Unfortunately, I got caught in a bait-and-switch. I wanted to get into computer security, which I've done. Unfortunately, instead of evaluating new products, doing risk assessments, responding to attacks, etc., which semed to be where I was headed, I got stuck in the group that resets passwords (translation: bleugh!). I'll be there for at least year (if I stay), and after tempering half-promises with sober analysis, it appears I could get into the interesting stuff within 2 years.

-I need to see exactly how much poker I can handle.
I've been playing quite a bit lately and doing very well online- when you add prop money to playing two 5/10 or 10/20 tables, and can really add up. Waiting on another prolonged bad streak to see how I feel then. During the last one, about 8 months ago, I had a somewhat shorter bankroll, and somewhat more pressure.
I took a week-long trip to Vegas and absolutely loved it, but again, that's just 45 hours of poker. I found that I really enjoyed seeing similar faces from day-to-day.
I've also been making my way to AC with some regularity, always enjoying it and thinking "why the hell do I have a job instead of doing this" even when I'm having a losing session.

-I need to work on my game
I feel I've improved in the last 6 months, particularly in dealing with semi-skilled players, the would-be-winning-a-tiny-bit-if-not-for-the-rake types. Whereas a year ago I only felt truly comfortable at a table full of fish/semi-fish (and possibly a couple skilled players that I would just try to avoid), I'm now feeling a lot more comfortable with extracting profit from a wider range of skills and styles. I believe this is a result of moving up in limits and seeing slightly tougher tables. When I was in Vegas 2 weeks ago, I felt very much on top of the 15/30 hold'em game at the Bellagio, even on the weekdays.

-I need a bankroll
I pledged to have 15000 saved but August 25th. I think I'll meet that goal. However, I'll pay off my car loan (which will also allow me to lower my auto insurance coverage) and rebuild back to 15000 before considering "the plunge." I'll be carrying around 50k in student loans for quite some time. I'm in the process of consolidating them and extending the loan term out to 25 years- the plan to to invest the extra amount made available by lower monthly payments, but it'll also be available for expenses if really necessary. For the record, since I'd still play online a good bit, which yields doubled EV because of prop pay (and the prop pay is zero-variance), I believe that 500 big bets is nearly rock-solid secure.

-I need to study 3-5 hours/wk
I've been reading and thinking a good bit, but not 3-5 hours regularly. More like 3-4 hours/week 2 weeks/month. I think that's nearly sufficient, though I'll try to up it a little bit.

-I want to learn stud
When playing live I've been sitting at stud tables if my name comes up on the stud wait list before the hold'em one. If the game is good I'll stick around. Fun game, and one that I'd like to continue to develop, if gradually.

Estimated Probability that I will have quit my job for poker within the next 18 months: 65%

As always, further comments very much welcome and appreciated.

2ndGoat

[Glenn]

[Louie Landale]

One measure is how much you can make working or playing poker. If you get benefits from your job then typically your total job income is near 1.4 your salary. Are you making that much/hour playing cards? Can you buy individual health coverage? Would catastrophic health coverage (say $10,000 deductable) be a better bet? Do you get fed up playing poker and NEED a diversion like resetting passwords?

Go for it. What;s the worst that can happen? Gotta get a job in a couple years?

- Louie

[J.R.]

40% benefits? I do a lot of economic loss work regarding benefits and the general figure is around 20%, including social security (7%) medical coverage (5-10%) and pension (5-8%), with union workers earning perhaps closer to 30% benefits, but 40% seems a bit high.

[Mano]

I'm not doubting your figures, but you did leave out sick leave and vacation. Not sure how much that would change your numbers.

[J.R.]

Sick leave and vacation are already included in the salary, in that you get paid each week even if sick or on vacation.

[Mano]

Sick leave and vacation are already included in the salary, in that you get paid each week even if sick or on vacation.

That is true for a day job, but not true if you are a pro poker player. The point I was making is that if you get sick and are unable to play or go on a non poker playing vacation then no money is coming in wheras for most day jobs you are still getting paid for this time. Also, many day jobs will pay out on unused vacation and sick time. To me this sounds like a benefit the day job has which a pro poker player does not have. On the flip side, the more hours a winning pro plays the more money he makes, where for a salaried job you get pretty much the same money regardless of hours (although you may get bonuses, and if hourly you get OT pay).

[lostinthought]

2nd goat,
great post, and fun follow up.. I am in a similiar situation and it's
You should defintely defintitely definitely consider consolidating your student loans. You can lock an interest rate for the life of the loan, and the interest rates are the lowest they have ever been. I don't think they will get much lower. Be sure to get the interest lowering benefits as well - the standard is minus .25% for using direct deposit, and minus 1% after 36 consecutive payments.
Anyways, it adds up to being less than the average inflation rate..

good luck.. keep us posted..

[2ndGoat]

My company sends out an annual "total rewards" statement that lists the cash value of each item in your compensation package. My benefits, which are pretty healthy, are worth almost dead-on 40% of my salary, though some of them (like 401(k) matching contributions and pension contributions) haven't yet kicked in.

2ndGoat

another big important status update in the works...

[MicroBob]

yeah...the whole sick-leave/vacation/PTO thing is something to consider as well.
but i think that is counter-balanced by the fact that i can stay at home and make a little cash while watching the tube and eating soup if i'm a little sick.
also, not having to deal with calling in to a mean/idiot boss and getting to pick your hours for when you DO work (play poker) is ideal to me.

but i do agree that you do have to make MORE playing poker then your regular job to make the jump worthwhile. i never thought about the percentage before but i think 30%-40% is a nice, solid figure with all the health-coverage and everything else.

and obviously the stability of your income (or relative lack thereof in poker) should be worth something.


2nd goat - i like your plan and think you have a good head on your shoulders. you have stability in your current job and are not taking that for granted.....but you also realize that you could be potentially having more enjoyment and making more money in the poker world. your goals to build your bankroll and to study more and more until you get there are impressive.


i would think that 40 hours/wk at a B&amp;M would be quite the grind....but, then again, i would think that 10 hours/wk at a B&amp;M might be a grind.
personally, i prefer the online-version of poker....go out for awhile...come home and knock out 2-4 hours or so before calling it a night.
where else can i come home at 1am and decide i want to fulfill part of my 40-hour obligation?


another aspect i considered is money i have to spend at my regular job....
if i drop my regular job then the money i have to spend for my own health-coverage is mostly balanced by the money i save by not having to make a 40-minute, 1-way commute everyday (gas prices suck these days in case you havent noticed).


this is an interesting thread that i missed the first time around so i'm glad you bumped it back up.
lots of worthwhile ideas in there.

[lostinthought]

[ QUOTE ]

i would think that 40 hours/wk at a B&amp;M would be quite the grind....but, then again, i would think that 10 hours/wk at a B&amp;M might be a grind.
personally, i prefer the online-version of poker....go out for awhile...come home and knock out 2-4 hours or so before calling it a night.
where else can i come home at 1am and decide i want to fulfill part of my 40-hour obligation?


[/ QUOTE ]

A B&amp;M Pro can do this, as long as he/she is also an online pro.. why is it that someone can't combine both successfully?

[squiffy]

The beauty of internet poker is that you can play a ton of poker, and see what your earn rate and talent level are, over the long-term, without ever quitting your job. If you live near live games, that's fine too!!!

[Cipher]

Two points:

1) Some people love structure, safety and predictability. Some people love to free lance, live dangerously and can't stand authouity. You need to decide which category you fit into.

2)We are in the midst of a poker frenzy. In my opinion, this will pass. In a few years we will run out of fish and only world class, dedicated, tough people will be able to make a living at poker, just like any other professional sport. This current oversupply of fish will not go on forever. They will eventually run out of money.

If you've got what it takes, nothing will stop you.

Best of luck,
Cipher

[Sooga]

Take it from me. I graduated in 2000 with a degree in mathematics/computer science from a nationally renowned undergrad program. I was then able to get a pretty decent-paying job doing programming at one of the biggest asset management firms in the country. Sounds picture-perfect eh? I thought so too...

Almost from the 2nd week at work I started to hate going. Here was my routine. Get up at 7, get ready, brave the 18-mile, hour-long commute, show up at 9. Plop down in my cubicle, and stare at a monitor, dicking around with code til 12. Take lunch break. Come back at 1. Continue dicking with code until 6. Brave the hour-long commute home. Get in the door at 7.30. Have some free time til 11, go to sleep, then repeat. Day, after day, after day. For 50 weeks per year. I just couldn't handle it. I know friends who have the type of personality that can handle this kind of job, but I was just going nutty. There were literally days when I realized that I had not spoken to a single person all day. Not a one. Anyway, I stayed for almost 2 years, but one day I just said screw it. I just made my mind up to quit. No back up job or anything. I just gave my 2-week notice, and that was that.

Obviously that was not the wisest of choices to make. While I was a programmer, I'd been playing poker on the side, and was making decent money, so I figured I'd just play more hours now that I was out of work. So I did. And while I did make enough money to get me by, the stress of playing went up tenfold. I found myself no longer enjoying the game.

A few months later I found a job teaching high school, and I gotta say it's a pretty sweet gig. I like it a lot. I won't say 'love' quite yet. /images/graemlins/smile.gif And I'm still playing poker, and I'm back to enjoying it again. Someone on this forum said something to the effect of, 'poker's a great second job, but a crummy first job.' I couldn't agree more. Take it from me, play because you want to, not because you have to.

[MicroBob]

" 2) We are in the midst of a poker frenzy. In my opinion, this will pass. In a few years we will run out of fish and only world class, dedicated, tough people will be able to make a living at poker, just like any other professional sport. This current oversupply of fish will not go on forever. They will eventually run out of money. "


this is a popular argument and is not without merit....still, i disagree.

25 years ago if you were told that legalized-gambling would become extraordinarily popular and profitable all over the united states you probably would have disagreed (if you asked me 25 years ago i would have given a more non-sensical response because i would have been 8 years old).

Las Vegas...and then Atlantic City...looks like we've got both sides of the country covered....anything in-between would cut into the pie too much.
you probably would not have fathomed that Mississippi would do extremely well with the gambling dollar and that Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Missouri, Washington, etc etc would also get casinos all over the place, big and small, and would do very well.

well, this is an argument about the regular 'gambling' dollar....the blackjack and roulette and slots-junkies. what does this have to do with poker??
a lot...because to many people it is the same thing....entertainment where you have a chance to win money.


the quality of poker-play will not stay super-fishy forever...but as long as you are decently versed in sklansky you should still be able to do okay.
proper strategy charts for BJ (and poker too for that matter) have been around for a long time....and most players are simply too lazy to bother with them or believe that they actually DO give the player the most play for his money (who cares what 'the book' says....i never hit my 16 against a 10).
these players come back time and time again by the way....and only a small percentage of them have even begun to discover poker.

as long as people are too stubborn to actually listen to the experts and the math-gurus and continue to think they can figure it out for themselves i think all of us better-than-average poker-players should do just fine.


now the possibility of our fine lawmakers pushing forth anti-internet-gambling legislation IS cause for concern....but even then, there are enough idiots to go around for the rest of us imo.

[Cipher]

[bigpooch]

1) If you go pro, play mostly online; if you can beat a B&amp;M
game for about 1 BB per hour, you may do even better per
table online; also, you can multitable so you can get 3x to
10x as many hands per hour as you would in B&amp;M.

2) Of course, poker is nonproductive and if you can make a
ton of money and get reasonable job satisfaction doing
something else, just play poker part-time as a second job.
There are going to be many regrets if you do nothing but
play poker online, unless you are even half the sociopathic
misfit I am! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[KSU78]

Here in Minnesota, the compacts for the Indian casinos forbid players from touching the cards. The state would like to have all the compacts re-done to get a cut of the pie which they forgot to take when they signed the compacts. The tribes have little interest in re-negotiating the compacts just to allow poker in their casinos.

In some ways, the poker rush is similar to when the casinos here first spread blackjack. It is hard to believe that the women who work the player board at Canterbury Park can actually write so small on Friday and Saturday nights. How long will the poker rush be? It is hard to say. But I am of the opinion that most of the poker rush is on the Internet and not in the brick and mortar cardrooms and casinos.

In some respects, it may be better to view poker like a lottery which is the mindset that many people can easily have towards poker and, in particular, tournament poker. As long as they have fun with it, they will be back to play. As long as they have a good score once in awhile, they will continue to play.

I totally agree with your perspective of the anti-internet gambling legistlation. The day is coming. It is a question of when, not if. That is the main reason I have decided to move to Las Vegas. Besides all the place to play there, the California cardrooms in L.A. are only a half a day away. Laughlin is a nice hour drive from Las Vegas.

[KSU78]

If you go pro, you must have an adequate bankroll for the level you expect to play at. You also must set some money aside to take care of your living expenses for a certain amount of time to cover a reasonable period when you begin to play full-time. It is truly a hard way to make an easy living.

I found this Roy West article (http://www.cardplayer.com/?sec=afeature&amp;art_id=13017) on going pro to be worth reading.

[toots]

I can certainly understand your sentiment, but I'd just like to add that some of us like spending our days dicking with code.

[2ndGoat]

To go pro or not- "The Deadline"

In the attached thread, a great number of you gave me advice in two spurts over the last year about the wonders and pitfalls playing poker for a living. I will again state that your posts were extremely useful and I appreciate them all.

In my original round of advice-seeking, I came to a game plan sketched out until August 25th, the one-year anniversary of my first out-of-college job. This date is about to become the present, so I figure a final update of sorts is in order. As before, I'm writing to organize my own thoughts, to give others not as far into poker as me an idea of what's ahead, and to solicit advice. The thread about playing professionally in the mid/high limit hold'em section has somewhat stolen my thunder, but I press on undeterred.

To recap- hated my job, hated my commute, hated mornings, didn't hate poker. Planned to save a 15k bankroll by August, then re-assess and continue from there.

A lot of things in my non-poker life have changed since I set this course. Several days after my 5-month update, my job went from horrible to utterly intolerable. Not only would I be stuck with the menial task of resetting passwords, I would be on-call to do so 24x7, with no breaks except for the occasional weekend if I got someone else to cover for me. So if I was at a party half-drunk (or, well, all-drunk on occasion) on a Friday night and someone decided they really needed to get into a password-protected system, I would have to bust out my laptop and get to business (this situation actually happened with some frequency, since my company was/is recovering from accounting problems and had consultants working around the clock)

Because I had a sufficient bankroll to play online for an acceptable living by then, I balked at this requirement and figured I would either find away around that mess or just play cards. Because I was willing to tell the dickhead that was my boss' boss to go shove it (politely), and then go talk to his boss' boss (who is apparently a very decent human being) about the problems I was having, I actually got into a job I really don't mind... I could almost say I enjoy it a lot of the time. I carry nearly the same level of responsibility as the senior engineers in the group (selection/implementation/administration of firewalls as well as some moderately cutting-edge security devices, and the occasional scripting to support them). I am also on-call only one week out of five, and I do not often receive off-hours calls during that week. I've been told I'll be promoted when year-end reviews come around, which is not a huge deal, but is nice.

Since then, I have been won a little more at poker than I have grossed at my job (going back 6 months). Benefits still push the real job over the top.. but I'm only playing poker 15 hours a week. This influx of money has allowed me to pay off a car loan, get that 15k bankroll I was aiming for, and, at 21, plan on purchasing a home in northern Virginia this winter (at 22). In addition, because it was a viable alternative to "real work," I had enough leverage to demand a better job, and it's always there if things take another turn for the worse.

The way things look now, I'm not planning on quitting my job for poker in the next 18 months. The thing is, I now make ~3x as much in an hour of poker as I do at my job, thanks to multi-tabling and propping. Furthermore, after several very bad streaks, which used to sap my will to play, I'm still going strong. The new tentative plan is to stick around my current job for 2-5 more years, then move to consulting. I will hopefully be able to take one 6-8 month contract per year and spend the off time at poker. If that works out I can ease either in or out of poker while not introducing entirely severe employment gaps in my resume. My long-term goal, independent of poker, is to retire (or perhaps more accurately, not need to work) at the earliest second possible. I really believe I dislike mornings, fixed hours, and limited vacation time more than 99% of the general population. Hopefully the high hourly rate of poker, in conjunction with judicious investment of savings, will help achieve this goal significantly faster than if I did not have it as option.

Thanks again for your advice, everyone. Looking back, I really wasn't ready for the plunge a year ago. I didn't quite have a solid professional bankroll beyond that necessary to make a very modest living, nor had I proven myself medium-term at the limits I was planning on playing. I'm pretty confident I could've made it but it would've been a true grind. With that knowledge in hand, I imagine I will look back a year from now and say the same thing about August 2004. If I do go pro, I doubt I will ever have much of a decision to make, rather, it will happen on its own. I hear that same pattern time and again from professionals on this site and elsewhere, and I can
see myself part of the way down that same road.

Further advice and comments are, of course, welcomed and requested.

2ndGoat

[2ndGoat]

Whenever I have mentioned propping in messages here, I usually get a couple PMs inquiring about it. I'm not at all here to advertise, but if you want to discuss how propping works, whether it would be a good fit for you, where you might get started, etc., I'm willing to cut a few PMs back and forth.

2ndGoat

[bogey]

the only reason playing live seemed so exciting is cause it was new to you, if you got bored playing online for the summer id be willing to bet the excitement you got from playing live isnt gonna last either

[TM1212]

[ QUOTE ]
My long-term goal, independent of poker, is to retire (or perhaps more accurately, not need to work) at the earliest second possible. I really believe I dislike mornings, fixed hours, and limited vacation time more than 99% of the general population.

[/ QUOTE ]

Have you ever seen the movie boiler room?

"You ethier sling crack rock or have a wicked jump shot. Theres no honor in that after school job at mcdonalds flipping burgers any more"

Most of the general public hate all those things just as much as you, but few can actually do anything about it. No one wants to work there ass off there whole life in a job they hate, but most people have no choice. You were lucky enough to find something you enjoyed in poker, and even better it lead to a new position, that you now enjoy at your current job.
It great to see that you are finally are doing something you like. Stick with it and good luck in the next 12 months

[27offsuit]

I still don't get how someone who says "I only felt truly comfortable at a table full of fish/semi-fish (and possibly a couple skilled players that I would just try to avoid), I'm now feeling a lot more comfortable with extracting profit from a wider range of skills and styles" can even CONSIDER 'going pro'?

It just sounds silly and naive. And seriously, no disrespect.

And you said you want to study cards a few hours a week. Pro play and/or study at least 8 hrs a day, 6 days a week.

[xrongor]

the joke here to me is that you think youll only be working 40 more years and only 40 hours a week should you choose the corporate route...

randy

[Michael Davis]

What exactly is silly about this? It is not naive, it is coming to an understanding that there is money to be won even as you move up and play against better players. In other words, with more experience, the OP feels comfortable in many different game conditions.

This seems to me a big step in going pro.

-Michael

[Warren Whitmore]

I believe you will find the 150:300 stud games at Foxwoods the most profitable game that there currently is on the planet.