why israel is the real threat

[brad]

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/nation/2109909

Justice: Israeli courts good example for U.S.
Associated Press
NEW YORK -- The United States could learn from compromises Israeli courts have struck to balance terrorism and human rights concerns, according to Supreme Court Justice Stephen G. Breyer.

--------------------------

he goes on to say that having a lawyer is unamerican but pro-israeli so lets do it!

btw, attorney client priviledge ruled void, and enemy combatants (who can be US citizens) dont get any lawyer anyway.

look waht the islamic terrorists (heh) have done to us! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[MMMMMM]

brad, the title of your post is way off base. You are definitely reading and imagining too much nonsense somewhere if you think the Israelis are a greater threat to us than are the Islamic jihad warriors. You are cracking up, brad.

[brad]

do u disagree with the article?

do u think lawyers for defendents are a bad thing?

do u prefer israeli law over US law?

----

you are aware i assume that justice department just came out and said they will use patriot act passed after 911 for all crimes, not just terrorism. (which they vehemently denied would ever happen at the time it passed)

am i insane for stating facts? or am i insane for opining that american system of justice is good? (eg, right to lawyer, able to face accusers, trial by jury, public trial, etc.)

[brad]

well also you know i like to make my post titles striking, my main point isnt even about israel.

a) in sodomy case of US supreme court, they cited 'being in line with rest of world on this'. wtf? rest of world is s***hole, ifirc.

b) in death sentence case in arizona of german nationals (who were put to death for murder or something), US supreme court said in future they would defer to UN or something in cases like this. wtf?

so maybe i just should have titled post 'another wtf?'

[Wake up CALL]

[ QUOTE ]
do u disagree with the article?

Yes

do u think lawyers for defendents are a bad thing?

No and the article does not say that either.

do u prefer israeli law over US law?

In this instance it seems fair, other than that your quaestion is much too general.
----

you are aware i assume that justice department just came out and said they will use patriot act passed after 911 for all crimes, not just terrorism. (which they vehemently denied would ever happen at the time it passed)

Brad you keep stating this over and over like if we see it enough we will believe you. That is incorrect and you have yet to post information which states such as factual.

am i insane for stating facts? or am i insane for opining that american system of justice is good? (eg, right to lawyer, able to face accusers, trial by jury, public trial, etc.)

[/ QUOTE ]

[b] You rarely state "facts" and may very well be somewhat confused and paranoid if not completely on your way to insane.[b]

[ACPlayer]

What he is pointing out, i think, and this is something that you have expressed a concern about is, that the Islamic Jihad warriors may have done greater harm by changing out mindset about civil liberties.

Dont know how the title relates tho. Perhaps in as much as we are becoming more vindicative in our approach to suspects (as opposed to convicts) like the Israelis.

[MMMMMM]

"well also you know i like to make my post titles striking, my main point isnt even about israel."

I guess that says it all then.

Next time I want to post about anything, I'll just think up a shocking, misleading, largely irrelevant post title just to make sure people read it. Great idea.

[brad]

'you are aware i assume that justice department just came out and said they will use patriot act passed after 911 for all crimes, not just terrorism. (which they vehemently denied would ever happen at the time it passed)

Brad you keep stating this over and over like if we see it enough we will believe you. That is incorrect and you have yet to post information which states such as factual.
'

i see.

---------------------
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/09/14/national/main573155.shtml

Terror Laws Used Vs. Common Crimes

PHILADELPHIA, Sept. 14, 2003

AP) In the two years since law enforcement agencies gained fresh powers to help them track down and punish terrorists, police and prosecutors have increasingly turned the force of the new laws not on al Qaeda cells but on people charged with common crimes.
----------------------------
---------------------------------
http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/news/6716551.htm
Posted on Sun, Sep. 07, 2003

Patriot Act available against many types of criminals
BY MICHELLE MITTELSTADT
The Dallas Morning News

WASHINGTON - (KRT) - Crisscrossing the country to defend the USA Patriot Act from the slings and arrows of conservatives and liberals alike, Attorney General John Ashcroft praises the law as invaluable to the war on terrorism and national security.

"We have used these tools to prevent terrorists from unleashing more death and destruction on our soil," he said last month as he kicked off a multi-state defense of the law.

Virtually unmentioned, however, is the fact that the Patriot Act extended the government's powers well beyond the terrorism arena. The creatively named law - USA Patriot stands for "Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism" - also handed FBI agents and prosecutors a broad new arsenal for going after garden-variety criminals.
----------------------------------------------

[ACPlayer]

There have also been reports of federal prosecutors being required to use their offices to promote the act.

[brad]

well obviously its about israel, i mean read the article, but the main point is US sovereignty and our laws and bill of rights and stuff.

what i meant though is im not picking on israel, thats what i meant.

[brad]

well the title just refers to the article in the original post about modeling our laws on israeli laws.

no thank you!

not really meant to pick on israel,

perhaps a better title

'real enemy modelling our laws on foreign ideologies' (like israel)

[brad]

well what do u think, (assuming mutual exlusive /images/graemlins/smile.gif )

am i insane or is what i said documented in ap (associated press) ?

[Wake up CALL]

Thanks for the links brad. It appears I misunderstood what you were saying. I thought you meant that thses laws were never intended to apply to common criminals as well as acts of potential terrorism. The quote from your first article below clarifies that this was indeed the intent:

"Stefan Cassella, deputy chief for legal policy for the Justice Department's asset forfeiture and money laundering section, said that while the Patriot Act's primary focus was on terrorism, lawmakers were aware it contained provisions that had been on prosecutors' wish lists for years and would be used in a wide variety of cases. "

This does however conflict with what you said here:

"you are aware i assume that justice department just came out and said they will use patriot act passed after 911 for all crimes, not just terrorism. (which they vehemently denied would ever happen at the time it passed)"

So perhaps I didn't misunderstand what you wrote after all but you were simply incorrect.

[brad]

no after 911 ashcroft and his leiutentants specifically said it would be used for terrorism not for common crimes.

thats why its such a big deal now when they come out and say, hey we're gonna use anything we can for any crime.

it a total about face, just like ok we're invading cause of wmd, then, no war was never about wmd.

[Wake up CALL]

[ QUOTE ]
no after 911 ashcroft and his leiutentants specifically said it would be used for terrorism not for common crimes.



[/ QUOTE ]

Brad I know I'm a pain in the butt however I never remember reading that. Could you help me find the information you state above?

[ACPlayer]

I wrote an unpublished essay right after the Patriot I was passed predicting that one of the major victories that the terrorists may have was to change the US by making it a closed soceity.

Even I underestimated the vigor with which this may be happening. I tried reading the act but it basically consists of strike this here and insert that there, so that I at least was not able to follow it.

If what is being bandied in the left wing circles is even half true then it is true that the terrorists are indeed changing us and making us more closed with bigger fences, sacrificing of individual freedoms (startng small and getting bigger). I have no way of knowing if the left is correct, but I see no self examination in this administration and no checks and balances anywhere. They have us running around in circles, attacking countries that dont need to be attacked, ignoring those that should be dealt with, etc.

I do know that there are few right wing writers left in this area that have much credibility with me, and as I have stated, I am truly disappointed in Bush, who has moved the country way to the right of what he campaigned on, where I am feeling like a left winger LOL.

[brad]

alex jones has written critique of patriot act and the not yet passed victory act or patriot act 2.

www.infowars.com (http://www.infowars.com)

for what its worth i listen to his show regularly and none of his facts can be assailed. his opinion, however, of those facts i guess can be.

also for what its worth he makes documentary films and u can download them for free and watch them (need high speed tho)

also hes extreme right wing.

imo he has a lot of credibility, for instance, he accurately predicted when patriot act passed that it would be used against US citizens for common crimes, sometihng that justice department just recently admitted.

really his radio show is great u can listen online.

[brad]

well not sure about that really it was like 2 years ago.

however, i am pretty sure its in alex jones's videos, which can be downloaded for free if you have high speed internet.

road to tyranny, or masters of terror would have it i guess.

also btw, i just typed in google news search 'patriot act common crime' or maybe crimes to get the other so its not hard just use a search engine.

for what its worth do u remember ashcroft and his 'phantoms of lost liberty' speech on cspan i think.

he said that if you claim patriot act takes away liberties then you are aiding terorrists and your liberties *will* be taken away. scary.

[MMMMMM]

Can you download and see video of those occult proceedings at Bohemian Grove you keep talking about?

If I actually see our world leaders participating in a devil worship occult ceremony, brad, then maybe I'll believe you a little more. Maybe WakeupCALL would too;-)

What's the name of that Great Owl again?

[brad]

M you miss the point they dont deny they go there, and the grove is on record as saying it was a *mock* human sacrifice.

molek. long o, short e. not sure of spelling.

[MMMMMM]

What I want to know is can I download video of Alex Jones' undercover infiltration of this place and the ceremony?

[brad]

yep you can download the entire video like 2 hours.

a lot of it is background and newspaper articles about the grove and stuff.

its on www.prisonplanet.com (http://www.prisonplanet.com) under video section.

sh** i just checked like i usually do to make sure link is working and they took them offline (200 megs per video well duh it must cost a lot)

but road to tyranny i know was on a lot of sites but usually just crummy 40 meg version, you can probably find bohemian grove too if you search.

dang man, you should have spoken up i just dl'ed something like a month ago. (ok i downloaded like 300 megs no wonder they're not offering free anymore think if like everybody did that heh)

sorry. if i come across it somewhere or even clips i'll let u know.

[brad]

http://www.defendersoffreedom.org/videos/Dark_Secrets.rm

thats a clip i guess its only 5.5 megs

[brad]

oh here go crazy

ftp://download:infowars@66.94.78.218/


page that comes up below
-----------------------------------------------------------------

FTP root at 66.94.78.218

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This FTP server is for personal archive use only, the owner
does not permit the download of any of these files to
unauthorized persons.

Due to bandwidth constraints we have changed the download
option for some of the Infowars Documentary backup files to FTP.
The server will support up to 5 users at a time so please
be patient and try back later.

You will need to disable Passive Transfer to connect to this server.
Please review your FTP programs documentation on how to do this.

Please visit http://www.infowars.com to purchase high quality
VHS or DVD copies of these films.

It is prefered that you download using an FTP program such
as WSFTP or CuteFTP rather than Internet Explorer.

Thank you for your understanding.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

08/26/2002 12:00AM 19,008,736 56k_911_tyranny_alex_jones(1of2).rm
08/26/2002 12:00AM 18,900,999 56k_911_tyranny_alex_jones(2of2).rm
08/26/2002 12:00AM 16,888,279 56k_alex_jones_cafr_alex_jones(1of2).rm
08/27/2002 12:00AM 17,572,178 56k_alex_jones_cafr_alex_jones(2of2).rm
06/13/2002 12:00AM 33,085,440 56k_bohemian_alex_jones(1of2).rm
06/13/2002 12:00AM 48,250,274 56k_bohemian_alex_jones(2of2).rm
08/26/2002 12:00AM 16,528,310 56k_police_state_ii_alex_jones(1of2).rm
08/26/2002 12:00AM 17,531,289 56k_police_state_ii_alex_jones(2of2).rm
08/26/2002 12:00AM 123,788,179 911_road_to_tyranny_alex_jones_cable(1of2).rm
08/27/2002 12:00AM 123,170,334 911_road_to_tyranny_alex_jones_cable(2of2).rm
05/22/2003 02:24PM 15,484,119 911exposed.com-davidicke.ram
05/07/2003 03:07PM 11,128,416 alex jones interviews david icke-03-05-03.mp3
05/22/2003 02:29PM 35,755,959 alex jones-police_state_total_enslavement-34mb.ram
08/27/2002 12:00AM 104,477,778 alex_jones_cafr_cable(1of2).rm
08/27/2002 12:00AM 108,455,988 alex_jones_cafr_cable(2of2).rm
05/07/2003 02:00AM 18,874,725 art bell - david icke - matrix was real.mp3
06/11/2002 12:00AM 310,422,890 bohemian_grove_alex_jones_cable(1of2).rm
06/11/2002 12:00AM 316,260,118 bohemian_grove_alex_jones_cable(2of2).rm
05/22/2003 02:27PM 7,312,371 cuddy_05_07_03.mp3
05/05/2003 10:12PM 72,740,868 david icke related - documentary about evil satan worship - alex jones (www.infowars.com) - dark secrets inside bohemian grove.mpg
05/22/2003 02:29PM 3,149,783 davidicke-1.rm
05/22/2003 02:29PM 2,388,602 davidicke-2.rm
05/22/2003 02:29PM 3,383,663 davidicke-3.rm
05/22/2003 02:29PM 4,705,783 davidicke-4.rm
05/22/2003 02:29PM 1,964,115 davidicke-5.rm
08/27/2002 12:00AM 2,206 disclaimer_readme.txt
05/22/2003 02:26PM 36,509,767 ericrainbolt-theconspiracyoutlined.ram
07/16/2003 01:07PM 84,407,701 fed.wmv
02/26/2003 01:52PM 749 message.txt
08/16/2002 12:00AM 102,336,639 police_state_ii_alex_jones_cable(1of2).rm
08/16/2002 12:00AM 108,448,784 police_state_ii_alex_jones_cable(2of2).rm
03/30/2003 08:50AM 10,800,967 the liberty hour2.wmv
04/02/2003 11:21AM 241,733,658 the liberty hour2cable.wmv
05/17/2003 10:13PM 28,164,872 william_cooper_secret_govt-1.wmv


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Wake up CALL]

[ QUOTE ]
well not sure about that really it was like 2 years ago.

however, i am pretty sure its in alex jones's videos, which can be downloaded for free if you have high speed internet.

road to tyranny, or masters of terror would have it i guess.

also btw, i just typed in google news search 'patriot act common crime' or maybe crimes to get the other so its not hard just use a search engine.

for what its worth do u remember ashcroft and his 'phantoms of lost liberty' speech on cspan i think.

he said that if you claim patriot act takes away liberties then you are aiding terorrists and your liberties *will* be taken away. scary.

[/ QUOTE ]

Brad when I ask you for information it is because I have been unable to find a "credible" source for the things you cite as factual. It is the most polite way I know to ask you for "fair and balanced" truth. It is not because I haven't already searched for myself.

I loved that Ashcroft speech, the only ones who should fear the Patriot Act probably have criminal activities to hide. Does that describe you brad or are you just generally paranoid?

[brad]

ok. be honest. do u consider AP a 'credible source'. associated press if you dont know.

[Wake up CALL]

[ QUOTE ]
ok. be honest. do u consider AP a 'credible source'. associated press if you dont know.

[/ QUOTE ]

They are not a true source but a newswire organization Brad. It would depend where they got their information from in order to determine its' credibility, but generally I would rank their credibility as quite high.

[ACPlayer]

I know that you guys (MMM, stupidasso, wake up, et al) cant separate outcomes from process (which probably means you rant and rave whenever a poker bad beat is put on), but try this:

-- Regardless of whether the Patriot Act is right or slightly wrong or very wrong, does it bother you even a little when government people say stuff like: the only ones who should fear the Patriot Act probably have criminal activities to hide.

Remember we are not debating whether the act is good or bad. I am asking what it means when high govt officials suddenly ask you to not study what they are presenting but accept it and offer cheap shots if you even consider not accepting it.

Again, even if you have studied it and agreed with every word of it -- set that judgement aside -- and ask what does it mean when govt officials use that kind of rhetoric. What if it was Clinton or Carter or Gephardt offering this type of accept what I say because I know what is good for you (geez sounds like those liberal big govt knows best ideas that Teddy Bear Kennedy would offer eh?)

If thinking at this level gives you a headache, get some cheap prescription drugs from Canada.

[brad]

funny , article just today or yesterday that said same thing.

guy says, you know, ashcroft, et al, just dont get.

american system is to distrust the government. checks and balances. seperation of powers, etc.

[MMMMMM]

It's absurd for you to state that I can't separate outcome from process. Give one example where I made such an error.

On the other hand the fact that you would presume such a thing based on zero evidence might say something about your powers of observation and discrimination. Not that I think Stu or Wake up CALL lack the ability to differentiate between outcome and process--I'm sure they can also.

By the way I don't know a great deal about the Patriot Act but I have expressed some unease with what might be some of its implications. I have read a bit from both camps--from those who say it contains unconstitutional powers to those who argue that it doesn't. Suffice to say that that question might be a complex issue from a legal standpoint.

[Wake up CALL]

[ QUOTE ]
I know that you guys (MMM, stupidasso, wake up, et al) cant separate outcomes from process (which probably means you rant and rave whenever a poker bad beat is put on), but try this:

Pretty funny ACPlayer, I was thinking the same about you in particular. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Ironic huh?


-- Regardless of whether the Patriot Act is right or slightly wrong or very wrong, does it bother you even a little when government people say stuff like: the only ones who should fear the Patriot Act probably have criminal activities to hide.

Scare me? Heck I'm the one who said that!!! Last time I checked I no longer work for the government.


Remember we are not debating whether the act is good or bad. I am asking what it means when high govt officials suddenly ask you to not study what they are presenting but accept it and offer cheap shots if you even consider not accepting it.

I don't recall ever being asked not to study anything. Could you please cite a specific example? Discussing a hypothetical maybe here has little value.


Again, even if you have studied it and agreed with every word of it -- set that judgement aside -- and ask what does it mean when govt officials use that kind of rhetoric. What if it was Clinton or Carter or Gephardt offering this type of accept what I say because I know what is good for you (geez sounds like those liberal big govt knows best ideas that Teddy Bear Kennedy would offer eh?)

Again I've not encountered this decision before. If I do I'll let you know how I feel.


If thinking at this level gives you a headache, get some cheap prescription drugs from Canada.

[/ QUOTE ]

I may get a headache from attempting to decipher your rhetoric but not from thinking soundly. I recommend you try it ocassionally, it can be refreshing to remain open-minded.

[MMMMMM]

"Again, even if you have studied it and agreed with every word of it -- set that judgement aside -- and ask what does it mean when govt officials use that kind of rhetoric. What if it was Clinton or Carter or Gephardt offering this type of accept what I say because I know what is good for you (geez sounds like those liberal big govt knows best ideas that Teddy Bear Kennedy would offer eh?)"

Sounds a little like the recent U.S. Supreme Court Decision regarding Affirmative Action, doesn't it, ACPlayer!?

Even if the Constitution said one thing, they knew what was best for us! Heck it's only for another 25 years or so--hopefully, that is. Then we can go back to doing what the Constitution says we should do!

Do you know what judicial activism is, ACPlayer, and did it ever occur to you fear it? Just wondering, since you certainly seem to fear executive activism.

[ACPlayer]

Another example of taking a question or a problem posed and moving into a different direction.

Cant face the question head on.

[MMMMMM]

OMG...that was an ASIDE...see my other post for a direct response to your post, which by the way you never responded to.

I am actually starting to form the opinion that you are a semi-troll of some sort, and not a retired later-middle-aged engineer such as you have claimed to be. Your posts just don't seem to add up.

For one thing, nobody your age has ever had to consider for half a day or more to decide whether or not they would use force to defend against a violent home intruder, or whether it might be morally justifiable to do so. Just about everybody your age has long ago considered that question and arrived at their own conclusion.

Also, I have definitely never met an engineer who has the sort of "approach," or style, to problem-solving that you seem to possess.

[ACPlayer]

All you said in the other article was that you had some reservations about the Patriot act and that it was a complex issue.

My question had to do with whether or not you should be concernd that high government officials are making statements that imply if not state that they know best in making these decisions. The specific statement referred to Ashcroft saying that the only people who should worry about the Patriot act are criminals.

I have no idea what you mean by troll semi or otherwise. My style or approach thay you suggest may be why I was successful in building businesses in addition to being an engineer. I usually put people and psychology and process way above technology concerns (usually because you can always hire a BZ type and lock him in a room till the answer comes out -- well not literally). Anyway I am interested in your amplifying on my image.

I remind you that in Hold Em its not what you have but what they think you have that matters.

In answer to your question, judicial activism is worrisome but not as much as executive action, because more power is in the hands of executive. Specially today, where the legislative branch has handed a lot of power over. The single most worrisome issue today is the erosion of checks and balances (that is a process issue). A very powerful executive office is running over a weakened legislative and judicial branch, IMO. If you are looking for a specific discussion of the Michigam case, well, perhaps a separate thread.

Oddly, enough I have never considered the moral question you posed (possibily because I have no kids, though have been married, and possibly because the question of violence has never been brought to bear). I had the answer right away, but was not sure exactly what the answer meant to me. That is what I was considering.

[Wake up CALL]

[ QUOTE ]
Another example of taking a question or a problem posed and moving into a different direction.

Cant face the question head on.


[/ QUOTE ]

I answered your question quite directly over four hours ago. No comments or are you stumped?

[MMMMMM]

"I remind you that in Hold Em its not what you have but what they think you have that matters."

ACPlayer I am going to favor you with one remark only here because I am getting tired of this thread and it's getting late.

Look closely at your statement above and see if you can decide what might be more important. I'll give you multiple choice:

In Hold'Em, what matters most is:

A. What you have

B. What they think you have

C. What you think they think you have

E. What they think you think they have

F. None of the above

[ACPlayer]

what matters most is making sure they dont know what I think matters most.

[MMMMMM]

Wrong, ACPlayer, but if you keep at it you'll maybe get it eventually!