Q9 suited on the button. Comments Please

[MrG]

I am on the button with Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
4 limp to me, I call, SB folds, BB checks.

Flop:

6 /images/graemlins/club.gif 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif /images/graemlins/heart.gif

BB checks, EP bets, everyone calls.

Turn:
Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Does this make my hand better or worse? I have top pair now but don't like my kicker and any flush draw is dead.
BB checks, EP bets, Fold, call, Fold, I call, Fold.

River:
4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

So I have top pair with a weak kicker.

EP bets, LP calls, I call.

I am thinking that my hand doesn't warrant an overcall but the pot is good sized, so I called with top pair. EP has been betting the whole time and now I wish I raised when the Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif came on the turn. I think I would have a better read on the EP.

EP 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif wins with a rivered st8.
LP Q /images/graemlins/club.gif 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Thanks for all the advice.

P.s. Why do some of the hands on UB microlimit baffle me. Last night I lost a showdown with A high flush to a St8 flush, and there was a third flush Q high. In total at least nine clubs out during the hand, seems unreal?

[Apocalypse]

preflop just fine. I'd raise in case with possible stealing blinds, but four ppl limping in makes a call just right IMO

-The way EP plays this game is wrong in my view. Assuming you have been sitting here for more than 10-20 games with this guy i think you should have realised this. His aim with 76s on EP should be to hope to get as many freecards as possible to make his straight, low 2 pair or set. Call on flop if LP bets is for him ok of course-

On the turn, a raise is a sure thing. Almost against every player, but against a guy like EP you know you are favorite. If he'd reraise, a call on your part would still be justified...

River: bad luck. [censored] happens etc. etc. EP bets you call. A call is correct IMO because of his profile, and his play....

[Aces McGee]

His aim with 76s on EP should be to hope to get as many freecards as possible to make his straight.

What's wrong with betting your middle pair with an open-ended straight draw on a board that probably no one got a huge piece of?

[Apocalypse]

I must admit rereading my post is little bit more degrading to EP than serves him right. But on EP i wouldn't like the possibility of the ball in my court for the turn holding middle pair and an open-ended-straight-draw. On LP it would be different. Anyone having J9o and up would still have a justifiable call on the flop. There are still a lot of possibilities that could easily destroy your hand. I guess i'd still be aiming for a free card on the turn, considering its a flop most ppl will not burn their hands on if not holding top pair. But please correct me if im wrong, because im just starting out...

[The Bear]

I don't limp w/ Q9s...ever. And given the way you played this hand, I don't think you should either. Marginal hand, just toss it.

BUT, assuming that you are going to play the hand, I would proceed as follows.

Flop: I like the call here. You certainly can't fold. Some players would advocate raising, but I'm not a big fan of that play w/ this hand. You won't thin the field to clean up your Q's and you probably won't get a free card. I think you've got an easy call.

Turn: [ QUOTE ]
Does this make my hand better or worse?

[/ QUOTE ]

This makes your hand much, much better. On the flop, you have a weak draw, a backdoor draw and overcards. On the turn, you have top pair and a weak draw. Now the 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif might not be clean, but you shouldn't care that much. You now have a made hand w/ a draw. Is it a super strong hand? No, but you're now in a position to take the pot down without improving.

Given the new nature of your hand, you have to raise the turn. You have good reason to think you're ahead and if you aren't, you have between 3 and 9 outs. You also have the advantage of position, so you have the option to check behind if the river is something ugly like 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif.

River: I think the overcall is okay here. You'll win this pot a fair number of times, so that probably makes it worthwhile.


General: Be more aggressive.

Final Note:
[ QUOTE ]
Why do some of the hands on UB microlimit baffle me. Last night I lost a showdown with A high flush to a St8 flush, and there was a third flush Q high. In total at least nine clubs out during the hand, seems unreal?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's really not unreasonable. Don't fall in to the trap of thinking "online poker is a conspiracy". The players on this forum are proof that the game isn't rigged.

[NRS]

I think you should have considered folding on the flop.

Yeah, Q is an overpair, but not a particuarly strong overpair, especially with that kicker. Otherwise, you've got a gutshot straight draw that is likely to split the pot even if it hits, runner-runner for the flush ... your odds aren't good here. And there are a bunch of limpers ahead of you.

I don't mind playing something like Q9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif on the button, but if you don't catch a piece of the flop, and you're bet into, it's an easy muck. And for goodness sakes, if you play it, and one of your outs hits on the turn, you've got to bet that.

[The Bear]

Besides limping in preflop, I think EP played his hand very well. He definitely DID NOT play it poorly.

[angry young man]

preflop, I'd do the same but I'm not sure I'm happy with it. thinking about giving this hand the ax

flop. clear call with the backdoor flush and Q outs.

turn. I'd raise

river. I'd probably call but I'd be mad at myself for doing so. If I'd raised and EP bet out and LP called I could definitely fold.

. In total at least nine clubs out during the hand, seems unreal?
bite your tongue, we don't want to start that kind of talk around here again /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[Aces McGee]

If you are going to play your top pair weakly because you don't like your kicker, then you should fold this on the flop. The number of times you don't hit will cost more than you'll gain if you play so weakly when you do hit.

Aces McGee

[Aces McGee]

Betting your open-ended straight and big flush draws is effective for a number of reasons.

One, it puts more money in the pot for when you do hit.

Two, it disguises your hand. Since few low limit players will bet their draws, few will take imagine that you are doing so. When you do make your hand, you can often get more bets with it, because your opponents will misread you.

Three, it gives a better chance to take the pot down without a showdown, and you should never complain about winning a pot.

Add to the equation the fact that EP has middle pair, and I think this is an easy bet with this innocuous-looking flop. He might very well be best already, and he has to protect that. He also has no way of knowing where he stands unless he bets -- and it's best to do that on the cheap street.

If I'm wrong or missed anything, someone fill in the holes or correct me.

Aces McGee

[hockey1]

To those responders who say you should've folded this preflop, I say they're dead wrong. Q9s for one bet is a clear call, especially from the button, especially against multiple limpers.

As to your question regarding whether the Q on the turn helps your hand the answer is unquestionably yes. You can't really be that disappointed that you didn't catch your 22:1 (I think that's right) runner-runner flush, can you? Especially in light of the fact that it's only Q high?

As for your play once the Q hit you were way too passive. EP didn't raise preflop, so you can't put him on KK or AA. Maybe he has a Q with a better kicker, but unless that kicker is a 6, 5, or 8 -- which is pretty unlikely to be played EP even at low limits -- what could he possibly have been betting with on the flop? A set? If so there's not much you can do about it but you can't put him on that until he at least raises your bet. Until that happens you've gotta believe he's drawing to a straight. If that's right, you're ahead with the pair of Qs and you need to make him pay. Bet the turn. Check-calling the river wouldn't be a huge mistake, but I'd probably bet out there too.

[Aces McGee]

Especially in light of the fact that it's only Q high?

If you're going to disparage the possible flush because it's only Q-high, then this is NOT a clear call preflop, as you assert.

Aces McGee

[hockey1]

There's certainly nothing wrong with a Q high flush. I'll take one if I can get one. But in light of the fact that even if you make you're 22:1 miracle draw it won't be the nuts, my point is that you should be quite happy with the Q.

[Aces McGee]

I agree. But your comments seemed to imply that he shouldn't be all that disappointed with a queen-high flush. My mistake if I interpreted them incorrectly.

Aces McGee

[MrG]

Thanks for all the advice been playing about 3 months and am slowly learning but it seems strong hands are easier to play. It is the marginal hands that my decision making is random, I am not confident, and often make the wrong play.
Well back to the tables, books, and this forum for some more info. Thanks again.

[NRS]

I'm surprised with the strength that people perceive in this hand as of the flop.

[ QUOTE ]
Betting your open-ended straight and big flush draws is effective for a number of reasons.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not an open-ended straight draw; it's a gutshot straight draw, and that makes a difference both in terms of the number of outs as well as the probability of having to chop the pot if it hits.

And should people really make check-fold-raise decisions on the basis of runner-runner flushes? As a tiebreaker perhaps, or if there's a huge amount of dead money on the table, but I don't think it's close enough in this case.

[ QUOTE ]
Two, it disguises your hand. Since few low limit players will bet their draws, few will take imagine that you are doing so. When you do make your hand, you can often get more bets with it, because your opponents will misread you.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a nice play, agreed, but you need better odds than that to make it work.

[ QUOTE ]
Add to the equation the fact that EP has middle pair, and I think this is an easy bet with this innocuous-looking flop.

[/ QUOTE ].

So if you succeed in isolating EP, what does that do for you? You're still going to be an underdog. From twodimes, here is how Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif plays out heads-up against several hands that EP could plausibly have bet into you with.

vs. 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif - wins 25.7%
vs. 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif K /images/graemlins/club.gif - wins 38.1%
vs. 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif - wins 44.4%
vs. 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif - wins 22.0%
vs. A /images/graemlins/club.gif 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif - wins 17.0%, splits 16.3%
vs. 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif Q /images/graemlins/club.gif - wins 30.5%
vs. T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif T /images/graemlins/spade.gif - wins 31.1%
vs. 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif - wins 16.2%

A bet here is, at best, a semibluff, and there are better hands to semibluff with.

[Aces McGee]

My post was in response to Apocalypse's, who called EP "crazy" or something along those lines. I was defending EP, who did, in fact, have an open-ender on the flop.

Aces McGee

[NRS]

My bad, Aces, I was looking at the Q9 player.

[Uston]

Well, Q9s on the button after four limpers isn't marginal. It's an easy, easy call. On the flop and beyond, every decision you were forced to make was marginal.