When to draw in Omaha?

[bebopalula]

I must apologise for so many questions in the last few days. It's just that I'm keen to learn and can't find much info. I generally can work out pot-odds but I still need some basic guidance for when to stay with the play in Omaha hilo. My main questions are: when should I keep drawing with 2 pair or a set? I also am reluctant to bet a the best possible straight on the turn bc I fear a flushdraw or a boat on the river. Am I too fearful?

Any tips would be appreciated -maybe you know of any good articles I could read.

Thanks,
bebopalula

[Aragorn]

>>en should I keep drawing with 2 pair or a set?

This is a very complicated question. Which two pair? Which set? Is there a low draw or a flush draw out there? How many players are in? What has been the action up to now? All of these factor in. There is no simple answer. I would only advise that bottom sets are a disaster in O8. You tend to win a little or lose a lot with them. I play then cautiously if at all.

>>I also am reluctant to bet a the best possible straight on the turn bc I fear a flushdraw or a boat on the river. Am I too fearful?

In a word, YES! If you have the best hand, play it aggressively. If someone is going to draw out on you, make them pay as much as possible. With the nuts for low I am cautious unless there are at least 4 players in the pot because I might only get 1/4. With the nut high, I don't usually stop raising.

One place to be careful is if you have the nut straight and someone gets into a raising war with you. They may have the nut straight and draws to a better hand, such as a flush draw. In that case, you don't want to keep putting money into the pot.

[chaos]

With hands like two pair or a set your worst fear is making a full house and losing to a bigger full house.

When you flop two pair they come in three varieties: top two pair, top and bottom pair or bottom two pair. The last two are vulnerable if your opponents have a bigger two pair or a bigger set. I generally will only consider continuing in a multiway pot with top two.

The same reasoning applies to flopping sets. You can flop top, middle or bottom set. The higher the set the better. Also note that top set is vulnerable to a turn or a river overcard to the board giving one of your opponents with a pocket pair a bigger set.

With straights you want to have the nut straight. Lesser straights are junk. Even the nut straight is vulnerable to bigger straights, flushes and full houses. If on the turn you still have the nuts AND there is a reasonable chance you will have the nuts on the river you have to charge your opponents the maximum price to outdraw you.

In order to be happy with a straight you would generally also want a redraw to a bigger hand. Here I might start my raising on the flop. More than one player may hold the nut straight. In this case the player with the redraw is free rolling.

You also need to consider whether you will be splitting the pot with a low hand. If you hold only the nut straight and your opponent has the low and a flush draw, you are the one being free rolled.

[tiltboy]

[ QUOTE ]
I also am reluctant to bet a the best possible straight on the turn bc I fear a flushdraw or a boat on the river. Am I too fearful?


[/ QUOTE ]
If you don't bet here you are giving your opponents infinite odds to draw out on you.

[gte910h]

If you don't bet here you are giving your opponents infinite odds to draw out on you.

I always hated that quote of Skalansky's. It not always right, especially for Omaha. Or rather, you ARE giving them infinite odds, however that doens't matter, you STILL shouldn't bet.

In Omaha, you can ALREADY have a made hand, even heads up, you can be a 2-1 dog to his draw. That's right folks, 66% of the cards the dealer is going to add to the board are going to make you lose your hand. It is NOT *always* correct to bet when you think you have the made hand in Omaha, and there are draws out there. For instance:

Everyone folds to the button limps. SB folds, BB checks.
Button's Hand:Ah 2c Th Kc
BB's Hand:As 2d Jc Js

Flop: [Qh Jh 4d]

BB has a made hand here. However the button has 3 outs for each of his broadway cards plus 9, plus also all the other hearts. The drawing hand has a total of 21 single card outs. There are 23 cards in the deck that aren't single card outs for him. With all straight and flush possiblities plus them having the same low cards, the "drawing hand" is a favorite. You shouldn't bet when you're not the favorite. You should take a free card and see if you improve.

[tiltboy]

The specific situation he described was on the turn, not the flop. I agree that a made straight on the flop is not necessarily a hand to bet and often is a hand to fold, but I've found it to be extremely rare when a made straight* on the turn is not a betting hand. Please feel free to disagree and post a rebuttal.

*assuming it is the nut straight and there is no possible flush or full house yet

[crockpot]

an extremely rare case:

Omaha Hi: 40 enumerated boards containing Jc Tc 7h 3h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
7c 3c Jh Th 26 65.00 14 35.00 0 0.00 0.650
9s 8s 9d 8d 14 35.00 26 65.00 0 0.00 0.350


heads-up, you should definitely bet the nut straight on the turn, as a draw like this is pretty rare. multiway, you're much more likely to be a collective underdog when the board is very prone to higher straights and flushes, as above. in a multiway pot, i might check at limit play, but bet at pot-limit.

[crockpot]

didn't see the hi-lo thing in your original post. whether or not you choose to bet or call with your straight depends a lot on the number of low cards on board. if there is no low possible, you should bet or raise here unless there are a ton of possible flush and higher straight cards. if there are two low cards out, you may even want to fold, as in most situations you need a hell of a lot of draws to miss to win the whole pot. on a hand such as the 89 with the JT73 board in my last post, you have no outs to a nut hand for the whole pot.

[iblucky4u2]

Top two pair are normally worth playing, although top set is normally a much better hand. With top two you have 4 outs to the nuts - with top set 10.

One rule I adhere to is if there is a low already made and I do not have a made high (top set is NOT a made hand) then I am reluctant to get into a raising war on the flop or turn. Too often a made low is free rolling me with a flush or str8 draw. Imaging 2-4-8-Q (two of a suit) boards where you have QQ. What card can you want other than a pair? That means you have 10 outs and 34 bad cards. The only card that does not make a str8 is a K - with the chance of an overpair /images/graemlins/frown.gif If you get aggressive with the top set you will wind up loosing a lot of $ but winning only 1/2 of pots where you fill up.

Str8s other than broadway are vulnerable. You can push AAKQ ds type hands where you make a high str8 and have strong redraws. Say the board is AJ8-T with one of your flush draws alive. PUSH IT! Make those low draws pay - there are no bad cards for you - only good ones. The worst that will happen is the low will come and you will get 1/2. Any high flush or pair will give you the scoop. If someone bets into you or raises you (also with broadway) push it to the limit.

[punkass]

Yes there are situations were an excellent draw "beats" a "made" hand on the flop (sets are not made in Omaha 8). But on the turn, I believe the nut straight has to bet out against a flush draw.

[Buzz]

"My main questions are: when should I keep drawing with 2 pair or a set?"

bebopalula - If you're a beginner, I suggest that you only play top two pair or top set after the flop. And with either of these hands, I suggest that you bet (or raise) to protect your hand.

"I also am reluctant to bet a the best possible straight on the turn bc I fear a flushdraw or a boat on the river. Am I too fearful?"

Yes, you are being too fearful. You should bet to protect your hand.

"Any tips would be appreciated"

There are two kinds of draws in Omaha-8: (type I) draws where you will have nothing if you miss your draw, and (type II) draws where you already have something.

Type I. An example of the first kind of draw is when you hold ThJcKhAc and the flop is 5h8c9c. Here you don’t even have a pair.

Type II. An example of the second kind of draw is when you hold ThJcKhAc and the flop is 5hTcTd. Here you have flopped trip tens.

Type I. When you hold ThJcKhAc and the flop is 5h8c9c you want to see a club that doesn’t pair the board or a queen. You seem to have 14 outs, (2c, 3c, 4c, 6c, 7c, 7d, 7h, 7s, Tc, Qc, Qd, Qh, Qs, and Kc), but eight of your outs are for only half the pot. 6+8*(1/2)=10. Thus you have only ten full pot equivalent outs. Thus with 45 unseen cards, the odds against making your hand on the turn, for the purpose of comparing hand odds to pot odds, are effectively closer to 35 to 10 (or 3.5 to 1) than 31 to 14.

Type II. When you hold ThJcKhAc and the flop is 5hTcTd you want a ten, jack, king, or ace. You seem to have 10 outs. (Ts, Jd, Jh, Js, Kc, Kd, Ks, Ad, Ah, and As), but three of your outs enhance the possibility of an opponent making a low. With any ace on the turn, there will be two low cards on the board and the odds against a third, different low card (which would enable low) are 20 to 24, or 5 to 6. Thus you have 7+3*(5/11)=8.36 full pot equivalent outs - or roughly eight and a half full pot equivalent outs. Thus with 45 unseen cards, the odds against making your hand on the turn, for the purpose of comparing hand odds to pot odds, are effectively closer to 36.64 to 8.36, (or 4.4 to 1) than 35 to 10.

Type I. When you hold a type I drawing hand, you have nothing to protect. You’ll have odds to call a single chip bet on the second betting round if the pot at the showdown has at least 4 chips in it, aside from chips you, yourself, henceforth contribute. Since it’s almost inconceivable the pot won’t have at least that much, with 10 full pot equivalent outs, you almost surely can afford to call a single bet or even a double bet to see the turn - and then once you call that bet, even if you don’t get one of the cards you want, unless the board pairs, you almost surely will have odds to pay to see the river. If the board pairs, you fold. (You don’t generally draw for a straight in Omaha-8 after the board is already paired).

Type I raises. What about raising with a type I draw? This has nothing directly to do with pot size. Since the f.t.e. odds against your making your draw are 3.5 to 1 against, if you’re certain you’ll get at least 4 callers, you have odds to raise.

Type II. When you hold a type II drawing hand, you do have something (a set, trips or two pair) to protect. In the example given, you have flopped trip tens with an ace kicker. Unless someone is holding a pair of fives or a five plus a ten, and thus has flopped a full house, you have the best hand at this point. Low is unlikely, but possible. You don’t want to give anyone a free draw to make low. You also don’t want to give anyone who might happen to hold a higher pair a free draw to make a better full house than you might make. Thus you generally should bet (or raise) to make it as difficult as possible for anyone to draw out on you.

Type II. There are also other flop types for type II drawing hands, besides a pair on the board. Suppose, for example, you hold JhJcKhAc and the flop is 6d9dJd. You have flopped top set, but a diamond flush is already possible. You probably need the board to pair to win the hand. If the board pairs, there will not be a low, so that low is not a consideration for you. You have 7 outs, but if you miss, you’ll probably have 10 outs (though maybe only 9) on the next betting round. Your hand odds are 38 to 7 or about 5.4 to 1 against you. To call a single one chip bet, there have to be six chips in the pot at the showdown, aside from chips you, yourself, henceforth contribute.

Type II cont. Again, it’s almost inconceivable the pot won’t have at least that much, so that with 7 full pot equivalent outs, you almost surely can afford to call a single bet or even a double bet to see the turn - and then once you call that bet, if the board doesn’t pair on the turn, you’ll likely have even better odds to pay to see the river. If you don’t catch a pair on the river, with top set you have to decide what to do.

Type II cont. But go back to the second betting round, immediately after the flop. You hold JhJcKhAc and the flop is 6d9dJd. Even though a diamond flush is possible, you should bet to protect your set. You can’t afford to let someone have a free draw to a low or a straight, and you can’t afford to let someone play a baby flush who would fold the baby flush to a bet. If you’re in late position and someone has already bet, you may want to limp. You almost surely have odds to limp. (You need 6 opponents who will call to make a value raise here - and there hardly can be that many opponents who will call your raise after a flop of 6d9dJd).

Thus you have two basic types of drawing hands after the flop, type I hands where you have nothing unless you make your draw and type II hands where you have something to protect. With type I hands, I think you want to make your draw as cheaply as possible. (That may involve betting on the second betting round to get a free card on the river). With type II hands, you want to make it as expensive as possible for your opponents to stay in the hand with you.

Lastly, with top two pair, since you only have 4 outs, you don't have as much of a drawing hand as a hand you want to play as short handed as possible. You probably don't want to play flopped two pair at all if you think someone has flopped a straight or a flush and/or if there are two or three low cards on the flop (unless, of course, you also have the nut low or the nut low draw).

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[chaos]

Excellent post Buzz

[iblucky4u2]

Buzz - great info for all of us. 2 things that I would like to add to make it more complete:

1 - in all your examples, there is at least one high card. IMHO you should have mentioned a type III draw - once the low is already made and you have a drawing hand similar to those you discribed. This is one of the biggest leaks in O/8 players games, even advanced players. Having the discipline to throw away draws once the low is made is critical to being a winning player at this game.

2 - In your example of 9-8-5 (or any low) you discuss the pot odds as though it were a scoop (3.5-1). Even if you hit the Q on the turn, there will be redraws to higher str8s and normally flushes for high and the draws to low - thus the odds are worse than you state.

It might also be helpful to include those str8 draws when there are already 2 of a suit on the board, making a draw to a str8 a bad call, even for one bet - especially with 2 or 3 low cards on the board - IMHO.

[Buzz]

“IMHO you should have mentioned a type III draw - once the low is already made and you have a drawing hand similar to those you described.”

iblucky4u2 - Yes. Excellent suggestion. I agree completely. Thank you.

When I started writing the foregoing post, I was thinking there are two main kinds of draws (those mentioned). Then, as I wrote, a number of other possibilities occurred to me, one of them involving differentiating between flops on the basis of the possibility for low.

However, my main point was there are some draws (mainly with top set or top two pair) where, if you can get rid of most of your opponents, you might not need to improve to win - and for these draws you need to protect your hand by betting and possibly raising. Other draws, (particularly flush and straight draws with no pairs) you want as many opponents as possible and you want to invest as little as possible before you make your hand.

“This is one of the biggest leaks in O/8 players games, even advanced players. Having the discipline to throw away draws once the low is made is critical to being a winning player at this game.”

If you’re playing in a hand where there has been no raising before the flop, but this is a game where your opponents are expected to play aggressively after the flop - then I think your statement is correct. In other situations it might not be.

For example, in a passive game, if six of you, including the blinds, see the flop for one small bet each, there are six chips in the pot. When the flop has three low cards in it, often the same six players will see one more bet each on the second betting round. But let’s say one player drops out every betting round, and there are no raises. That’s about as simple as it gets - and in that case there would be 25 small bets in the pot at the showdown, five of them having come from you after the flop. Thus after the flop, if you’re playing for only half the pot, and if there is no raising, and if one opponent drops out every betting round, you’re playing to possibly win 7.5 small bets. (If you don’t see this, stack up twenty five chips with twenty of them of one color and five of them of another color. Then divide the chips into two piles with all five of your own chips in one pile. The pile you win is the pile with your own five chips in it. There are 7.5 chips from your opponents also in your pile. Those 7.5 chips are what you will win.

Now let’s go back to the point on the second betting round where you are facing a single bet, and only playing for half the pot. Say you hold Ah2d9hTd and the flop was 2c7s8d, so that your hopes for low are very dim. If you call the single bet, you’re hoping for a six or a jack on the turn. With eight outs, the hand odds would be 37 to 8 against you after the flop. However, let’s take away one of those outs to account for a possible disaster on the river. (See below for my response to another suggestion from you). Thus we’ll make it 38 to 7 against (rather than 37 to 8 against) your making your straight on the turn. 38/7=5.4. Thus with hand odds of 5.4 to 1 against your making the straight on the turn, while your implied pot odds are 7.5 to 1 - seems like you have a clear call.

However, when someone raises on the second betting round, (but only on the second betting round) and then the rest of the betting follows as above, there will be four more opponent’s small bets in the pot and one more of yours - a total of 30 small bets, six of which are yours. Divide the pile of chips in two and award yourself the half that has your own six chips in it. There will also be nine small bets from your opponents in your share.

Thus on the second betting round when there is one raise, but no other raises on any betting rounds, 9 small bets is the implied pot, as far as you are concerned. If it costs you 2 small bets on the second betting round, your implied pot odds are 9 to 2, or 4.5 to 1.

But remember that the hand odds were 5.4 to 1 against you. Therefore you would fold to the double bet on the second betting round in this game situation.

Whether you should draw for high or not when the flop enables low would seem to depend on how much was already in the pot, how many opponents you were facing and expected to remain in the hand, and what you expected the betting to be.

Of course it’s usually not clear what your opponents will do on future betting rounds. However, in games where the betting is passive after the flop, I think you often play more properly by calling a single bet to take a look at the turn, even though low is already enabled and you are only drawing for the high half of the pot.

I think you should amend your statement to read, "Having the discipline to throw away draws once the low is made <font color="red"> and you do not have proper odds to continue</font> is critical to being a winning player at this game." I hope that doesn’t seem like nit-picking to you, because I respect and appreciate your ideas and suggestions - and you don’t deserve nit-picking - but sometimes my opponents go nuts before the flop and then ease up the second betting round. When this happens, and especially when you have position, I think you may have odds to draw for only half the pot even though low is already enabled.

“2 - In your example of 9-8-5 (or any low) you discuss the pot odds as though it were a scoop (3.5-1). Even if you hit the Q on the turn, there will be redraws to higher str8s and normally flushes for high and the draws to low - thus the odds are worse than you state.”

Yes. My apologies. The odds are indeed worse than I stated. The six of clubs, in addition to making an ace high flush for you, also would make a straight flush for an opponent who happened to be playing either 7cTcXX or 5c7cXX. Similarly the ten of clubs makes a straight flush for an opponent who happened to be playing 6c7cXX. But the odds of an opponent holding one of these hands and catching the perfect card, a card that would also make you a flush only decrease your chances of winning for high a fraction of an out - not even a half out.

However, as you point out, you may make your draw on the turn only to be out-re-drawn by an opponent on the river. I think there is no danger of an opponent making a higher straight on the river after a queen on the turn with this particular hand/flop. However, if you made a straight or a flush on the turn, your hand would be vulnerable to a possible full house if the board paired on the river. The possibility of the board pairing on the river is a significantly bigger danger than losing to a straight flush. And I think that possibility of be out-re-drawn on the river is a consideration that should be taken into account when figuring odds.

In addition, your straight would be vulnerable to a possible back-door heart flush if the queen on the turn was Qh. It’s a quagmire, isn’t it? The problem is some outs are worth more than other outs. (And it’s not simply a matter of scoop outs and half pot outs).

But I think I may see a way around the quagmire. How about if we simply subtract drawing outs to compensate for a possible disaster (mainly the board pairing) on the river. But how many outs should we subtract?

This post is already too long. In the interest of brevity, I’ll omit my reasoning, but I think subtracting 1 out from your drawing outs when the flop is mostly middle cards is reasonable. If the flop were Ac5sTh, then I think taking away 2 outs from your apparent drawing outs to compensate for a possible disaster on the river would be reasonable. I really appreciate your calling this matter to my attention. I’m hoping that compensating for possible disaster by subtracting one or two drawing outs from the apparent total number of outs after the flop works well for both of us. It certainly seems the simplest approach to use during a game.

Rats. I made another mistake in my post, now that I look it over more carefully. When you win half the pot, you win less than half of what you would have won if you had won the whole pot. That’s because you get your own chips back as part of your half of the pot. Thus I should have counted those half outs as 0.4 rather than 1/2. As things stand (if I’ve done the math correctly this time), one would still have odds to draw, just not as overwhelmingly favorable as before.

Oh well.

Buzz

[Buzz]

"Excellent post Buzz"

Thanks, Chaos.

Please note two significant corrections.

(1) In dealing with outs that will only get one part of the pot, it is more correct to count them as 0.4 times as much as an out that would be good for the whole pot than to count them as 1/2 as much as an out that would be good for the whole pot.

(2) When drawing for a flush and/or a straight, some drawing outs should be subtracted to compensate for the possibility of a disaster on the river. In the case of a flush, a disaster would be the board pairing on the river. in the case of a straight, a disaster would involve the board either flushing or pairing on the river.

A corrolary of these involves taking something away for a semi-disaster on the river. A semi-disaster would involve the board enabling low on the river after you have made the high on the turn. I don't have this completely worked out yet. Got to get it down to where one can make good estimations based on simple math procedures during the play of the hand.

Buzz