This one still hurts!

[poker91701]

I am [poker91701] and I am new to the forum, but I have been following the posts for a number of months. I am new to the study of Poker and I am putting a great deal of effort into understanding 7 card stud. That said, I lost this hand to [orangebirds] with a Ace high flush to 4 of a kind (six's) which he catches on the river. Did I miss something here? Did I bet this wrong? I orangebirds thought I had trips, an obvious error on my part. Was that a correct assumption? BTW this was an on-line .5/1 low limit game.

3rd Street:
Dealt to Neidutseon XX Jh
Dealt to SirRoyal1 XX 3h
Dealt to poker91701 [ Ad, 4d ]
Dealt to poker91701 Kc
Dealt to FLAMIN XX 2c
Dealt to orangebirds XX Ks
Dealt to ribica XX Jd
Dealt to mustangmike XX 8s
Dealt to Scott___ XX Ts
Everyone calls for a .25¢

4Th street:
Dealt to Neidutseon XX Jh 9c
Dealt to SirRoyal1 XX 3h As
Dealt to poker91701 [ Ad, 4d ] Kc Kh
Dealt to FLAMIN XX 2c 7h
Dealt to orangebirds XX Ks Jc
Dealt to ribica XX Jd 9h
Dealt to mustangmike XX 8s Qc
Dealt to Scott___ XX Ts 5d
poker91701 double bets (1)
FLAMIN calls (1)
orangebirds calls (1)
ribica calls (1)
mustangmike calls (1)
Scott___ folds.
Neidutseon folds.
SirRoyal1 calls (1)

5th street:
Dealt to SirRoyal1 XX 3h As 8d
Dealt to poker91701 [ Ad, 4d ] Kc Kh 2d
Dealt to FLAMIN XX 2c 7h Th
Dealt to orangebirds XX Ks Jc 5s
Dealt to ribica XX Jd 9h 7s
Dealt to mustangmike XX 8s Qc Js
poker91701 bets (1)
FLAMIN calls (1)
orangebirds calls (1)
ribica calls (1)
mustangmike calls (1)
SirRoyal1 calls (1)

6th street:
Dealt to SirRoyal1 XX 3h As 8d 4h
Dealt to poker91701 [ Ad, 4d ] Kc Kh 2d 7d
Dealt to FLAMIN XX 2c 7h Th 5c
Dealt to orangebirds XX Ks Jc 5s X
Dealt to ribica XX Jd 9h 7s Ah
Dealt to mustangmike XX 8s Qc Js 9d
poker91701 checks.
FLAMIN checks.
orangebirds bets (1)
ribica calls (1)
mustangmike calls (1)
SirRoyal1 calls (1)
poker91701 calls (1)

River:
Dealt to poker91701 [ Ad, 4d ] Kc Kh 2d 7d [ Kd ]
orangebirds: Ks Jc 5s 6h
poker91701 bets (1)
orangebirds raises (2) to 2
ribica folds.
mustangmike: got me
mustangmike folds.
SirRoyal1 folds.
poker91701 raises (2) to 3
orangebirds raises (2) to 4
poker91701 calls (1)

Orangebirds wins with quad sixes
Orangebirds [6s 6d] Ks Jc 5s 6h [6c]

[CJC]

Hello,

Your opponent played like an ass.
Typical online low limit poker.

I actually played in one of these super-low limit online games the other day at Party. One hand I paired my doorcard with ACES and got 5 callers.

All I can say is that micro-limit online stud plays nothing like a real game.

I will stick with my $10-20 cash games at Foxwoods

I will say one thing.. It appears as though you only started with overcards in your hand. I would wait for a better starting hand in these games.

CJ

[poker91701]

yes I understand your point. Up until now I have only played at B&M's in Vegas and have held my own. I do not feel confortable with low limit online play it is very different than the Poker I am familiar with. I am not sure how to play these low limit games. Seems like most stay in and only drop off if they cannot make their draw. It seems to boarder more on luck than skill. Let's deal 7 cards to every one and see who come out on top....Will this change with a 3/6 online game? Or are all games below 10/20 going to be like this?

Thanks,

[CJC]

Hi,

In My expereiencel it gets better at the $3-6 games. The $5-10 games play more like 'normal'.

Personally, I have just gotten turned off from online poker in general. MY play is much better in live games where I have a much easier time 'reading' my opponents. I can pick up a lot of things live that I just can't do in online poker.

CJ

[7stud]

Hi,

[ QUOTE ]
I am new to the study of Poker and I am putting a great deal of effort into understanding 7 card stud. That said, I lost this hand to [orangebirds] with a Ace high flush to 4 of a kind (six's) which he catches on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I find it hard to believe you are putting a great deal of effort into learning 7 card stud when you started with that hand. Your starting hand was pretty much three random cards with one of your Kings showing elsewhere. I think you need to study what good starting hands are. Also, you only had a pair of Kings going into 7th street--what made your hand so good that you think you were the victim of a bad beat? Your opponent was ahead of you with 3 sixes and he could have paired up for a full house just as easily as you made your flush.

Check out Roy West's "7 Card Stud: How to Win at Medium and Lower Limits" to get an idea of what to play. The decision whether to play on 3rd street is one of the most important decisions you will make in a hand. You can also learn what you are supposed to do when somebody pairs their door card on 4th street(= fold most of the time).

Finally, after learning what good hands are, you will have to learn to adjust for loose games where nobody folds, e.g pairs go down in value and drawing hands(= flushes and straights) go up in value. The reason for that is, lets say your big pair has a .60 probability of winning against a hand that has only a .40 probability of winning. Against two such hands, your probability of winning is .60 x .60 which is .36, so your probability of losing is .64, and .36 to .64 is 1.8 : 1 odds against you winning. Since, your opponents are going to be putting a combined two betting units into the pot for every betting unit you put in, you are getting 2:1 odds, so you still have a slight advantage--your odds of winning are 1.8 to 1 and you are getting paid 2 to 1 on your money. Increase your opponents to three, and the probability you will win the pot drops to .6 x .6 x .6 = .216, so the probability you will lose is .784 giving you odds of 3.6:1 against you winning the pot. Since your three opponents will only be putting in a combined 3 betting units per every unit you bet, you are now not getting the right price--the odds against you winning are 3.6 to 1, but you are only getting paid 3 to 1 on the bets you put into the pot. The idea is that if your hand is fairly good without too much chance of becoming a strong hand, the more players drawing against you, the worse it is for you.

[CJC]

Hi 7Stud.

While I agree with you that this posters hand starting requirements were 'minamally marginal' at best.

If I have read the post correct.. he paired his doorcard with KK on 4th..and the opponent with the pair of sixes should have been long gone. cause ( and again if I read post correctly ) he caught 3rd 6 on 6th and 4th on river.

LAter,

CJ

[poker91701]

"I think you need to study what good starting hands are. Why would you play that hand? It's pretty much three random cards with one of your Kings showing elsewhere."

Good question. I will grant you that this was not a strong hand to play on 3rd street. The reason I played this hand was because I had a live overcard "A", and I had two to a flush. My thinking was, that if I could get in cheap, I would. Had anyone full bet or raised I would have been gone. As you can see everyone did limped in...As you mentioned drawing hands go up in value and pairs go down thus my thinking was to just limp in and see what developed. This was my effort at being a little looser in a very loose low limit game.

In my defense ;-) , I did download my hand history and I saw 4rd street on less than 5% of the hands delt.

I did read West's book, and thought it was very informative. You're right, West would probably not have recommended playing this hand into 4th street, although "I think" it would have been a close call given the live overcard and the flush draw potential.

As for 7th street. I had 4 to a flush and the pot was at $20.00. I had 4 diamonds and only 4 other diamonds seen on other boards, or 8 total. There were still, potentally, 5 diamonds out with most of the cards delt. Why would I fold at this point for a $1 bet when the odds were still way better than 20 : 1 that I would get a diamond on the river?

When I did get my flush, I put my opponent on trips, after all there were no paired cards on his board. Three of his six's were hidden, he got them on his 1,2, 6, and 7th. His board going to the river was [Ks Jc 5s 6h] no pairs, nor a flush or a straight draw.

I would be interested in getting some other views on staying in for the River card in this hand. Given the board and the pot odds I think I would have had a -ev to fold at that point.

Thank you for your honesty. I posted this hand to get view points that will help me improve my skills, your post definitly gives me food-for-throught. I think you have a point about not getting in on third street, but I do not see your logic on mucking the hand before the river.

[Ed Miller]

As for 7th street. I had 4 to a flush and the pot was at $20.00. I had 4 diamonds and only 4 other diamonds seen on other boards, or 8 total. There were still, potentally, 5 diamonds out with most of the cards delt. Why would I fold at this point for a $1 bet when the odds were still way better than 20 : 1 that I would get a diamond on the river?

Where did he suggest that you fold on 6th or 7th street? BTW, when your opponent goes nuts on the river with a ragged board, his most likely holding is a full house.

[Ed Miller]

Who cares what his opponent "should" do? It's what he should do that we care about.

[CJC]

Just simply discussing the hand!!!

Since when in a discussion concerning a hand do we JUST concentrate on what the poster does? Its the whole play of the hand that counts.

[Andy B]

Hand histories are hard to read, and I frequently skip posts that are in this format. You will usually get more and better responses if you post your hand in the form of a narrative.

Is there an ante in this game?

As others have indicated, the third street call is marginal at best. I would like it better if there were no Kings and no diamonds showing. It would also be better if the King were in the hole. In any event, I don't really want to be playing a pair draw in a multi-way pot.

Betting the pair of Kings is fine. Four callers? I don't know what to do when I get four callers with an open pair on fourth street--it hasn't happened in three years. They should have Kings beaten to call. Obviously, they don't, but are there any players that you can say definitely have Kings beaten on fourth street. If so, you might want to slow down at some point.

When you catch your flush, you of course bet it. When you get raised by someone who isn't showing much, there is an excellent chance he has a full house. I might raise with trips, but I couldn't have them. I wouldn't call open Kings on fourth street without trips, and I would have raised at some point with them. I probably three-bet anyway, but that's as far as it goes. Obviously, you can't fold a big hand in a big pot.

Your opponent should never have been in there, but so what? He may not have gotten his hand until the river, but neither did you. When you were betting that pair of Kings, was it because you liked your flush chances? And he was leading on sixth street as well. Bad beat stories do not start with "I called with Ace-King-rag...."

[7stud]

[ QUOTE ]
I did read West's book, and thought it was very informative. You're right, West would probably not have recommended playing this hand into 4th street, although "I think" it would have been a close call given the live overcard and the flush draw potential.

[/ QUOTE ]

It also appears that you have read "Seven Card Stud for Advanced Players". In neither book do the authors recommended you start with a two flush with an overcard, as far as I'm aware of. The only value that hand could have is on a steal, and you didn't try to steal since the hand history shows you didn't raise on 3rd street.

Your hand is also not one where you are getting high implied odds like Jh 9h 8c, where you can get in cheaply and you are looking to catch a perfect card(Getting High Implied Odds, p.144 SCSFAP 21st Century edition). With your hand, your only hope on fourth street was to catch a pair card, but one of your kings was dead, and that is the exact type of holding you don't want to play in a multiway pot.

Personally, I would never consider starting with that hand in any type of game. With the K out, I wouldn't even try to steal with that hand in a tight game when I was last to act and no one had called the bring in.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
Your opponent played like an ass. Typical online low limit poker...One hand I paired my doorcard with ACES and got 5 callers....All I can say is that micro-limit online stud plays nothing like a real game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Garbage like this gets put up in the Small Stakes hold 'em forum all the time. I'm amazed to hear it from you. The game is quite "real".

Is there some reason you want your opponents to be folding correctly rather than chasing when drawing very slim?

[poker91701]

Andy the ante was a 25¢ in a .50/1.00 game...I very high ante that supports looser play.

You will notice I checked on 6th street when I did not improve and I still had 5 oppenents. I then felt (given my 4 flush) that I had to call the $1 bet due to the pot odds at that point.

When I got raised on the river I put him on tripps but a fullhouse was also a possibility but a longer one given no pairs on his board.

[CJC]

Hello,

What I said was NOT garbage. IT was speaking fact.

Micro-limit online stud DOES NOT play like a bigger game,nor ANY live ring game I have ever played( excluding home games). I think you will agree with me! It is not that I don't think it is a 'real' game, and perhaps I used poor wording in my original post...for that I am sorry, but I was truly amazed at what I saw when I played that game..and I am serious.. truly amazed!!!!



Is there some reason you want your opponents to be folding correctly rather than chasing when drawing very slim?

NO!!!! and I never said that in my original post. nor did I mean to imply it... Once again, if it came accross this way.. I am sorry.. I was just mentioning that the posters opponent did play like an ass... and NO ONE knowledable here can disagree with me on that one.

CJ

P.S. -- Maybe I can finally meet you this time when I am up in Vegas. I arrive Friday the 15th. I will be there till late the following Thursday. Are you hanging more at the Bellagio these days or The Mirage?

[SittingBull]

as loose as most of the field is playing.
If the field is playing loose,U can loosen up a little but be careful not to play more loose than MOST of the other players.
in fact,if U do not loosen up,u are giving up some long-term profit in these spot.
If the filed is playing somewhat tight,then u need to play even tighter.
in your particular case,u played it well and just lost the race. However,playing in these spots like U do OVER TIME should result in additional profits.
Bot u and your opponent had a 50% chance of sucking out.
However,the pot will always be very large in this case(relatively speaking),so u will always be a money favorite.
HappyPokering, /images/graemlins/smile.gif
SittingBull

[poker91701]

As I have given this more thought I have to question playing in a low limit .50/1.00 game with 25¢ antes. This size ante is like a $1.50 ante in a 3/6 game. You would think you could still antes, but in such a low limit game no one is bluffed out with a $1 bet. If you play tight you may only see 4th street 5 times out of a 100 hands, and you are now down $25.00 just with the ante losses. If you only go to a showdown 2 times out of the 5 (remember you are facing multihand pots with multi raising before the river). You darn well better win those two hands just to break even even with pots in the mid $20 range.

If you play loose you run the risk of big swings. Then the next big question is, how loose should you play? Should you be willing to open with only one over card and one out? Three to a flush with nonqualified hand (No over cards) with two flush cards showing?

This is what I tried to do in the loss I described in my first post, but I am not sure that was a smart move.

I would like to stay in low limit games on line given my newbe status and bankroll, but this may not be a winable game over the long haul......

[7stud]

[ QUOTE ]
Then the next big question is, how loose should you play? Should you be willing to open with only one over card and one out?

[/ QUOTE ]

I suggest you review some of your poker books. No poker authority I'm aware of suggests you call with such a poor hand in a loose game. The suggestion to play looser in a loose game does not mean you should play badly.

[ QUOTE ]
Three to a flush with nonqualified hand (No over cards) with two flush cards showing?

[/ QUOTE ]

With a raise and a call ahead of you(or if you can count on callers behind you) any live three flush(2 or fewer of your suit out) is playable, especially in a loose game.

I think you need to seriously re-evalute what you've read about 7 card stud. Playing in a loose game means you add holdings like the Jh 10h 8c to your starting hands, not hands like Ad 4d Kc. Also, I believe your fixation on the concept of an overcard is misguided. The main reason you should be interested in an overcard is the possibility of pairing your overcard and making a higher pair than your opponent, and in loose games pairs go down in value.

[SittingBull]

The structure of this game will require u to experience hugh swings if u expect to be a long-term winner in this type. U cannot play it conservatively.
So if u can't handle big stack/bankroll swings,do not play in this type of game. Note that the ante is a whopping 50% of the SB. Hence,the structure encourages aggression.
Find a low limit game where the ante is no more than 20% of the SB. U will be able to play more conservatively.
I believe the ante in 3/6 is no greater than 17% of SB.
If u do not have the bankroll for 3/6,take some "shots" at the game. if u bust,just be patient and build up another 'skillet' for another 'chip and chair'. Just forget about .05/1.00 stud game. See Roy West's primer for low and medium limits. Also study Konstantin Othmer's 'Seven Card Stud ' for various limits.
HappyPokering, /images/graemlins/smile.gif
SittingBull

[SittingBull]

to the forum members--If a player is selective about his starting hands and the rest of the field stays in to see several additional Strs. with RANDOM cards,will the player who is selective of his hands be able to beat the game over time??
I had my doubts because of the collusion factor --almost always , one of the other players will draw out on the one who plays selectively.
That was my thinking.
Well,I clearly remembered what RAY ZEE thought about my question. Although he did not say so,the impression that I received from his answer was that my question was ASSININE.
I quote--"You're joking,of course?"
In other words,u will,over time, MOP-UP,in these type games.
Hence,if u play loose,but not as loose as your opponents do,u will clean up OVERTIME. However,be prepared to endure MANY HEART-ACHES. U will lose many pots--but those that u win will make up for the many times that u do lose.
Hence,over time,your bankroll WILL grow.
BTW, in the higher limit games,the players are usually in there trying to "knock-out" their opponents early with ANY reasonable hand. This is because the ante is so high compared to the betting limits one cannot just sit and wait very long like some sort of a "SittingBull". LOL!.
Happypoering, /images/graemlins/smile.gif
SittingBull

[7stud]

[ QUOTE ]
Hence,the structure encourages aggression.
Find a low limit game where the ante is no more than 20% of the SB. U will be able to play more conservatively.

[/ QUOTE ]

The ante structure encouraged agression, but the game appeared to be very passive--everyone was a calling station. I don't agree that poker9701 should find a game where he can play more conservatively. It sounds like a great game for him to be in: he wanted to play a weak hand, and a high ante game is a game more suited to that type of play. If he played in a lower ante game, it would require better starting hands.

If the antes totaled $1,000, then any hand would be playable because of the pot odds, while if the antes were zero, you would just wait for 3 aces since it would be free to see the first 3 cards.

With the ante being 25 cents, or between 25%($1) and 50%(.50) of the average future bets, maybe 2 live overcards to the board is enough to play. I guess you would have to play a large number of hands and keep decreasing your starting hand requirements until you saw your profit peak and then start to fall off again.

The ante is something I didn't consider earlier--I assumed it was something reasonable