More money to be made in MTT than SNG's?

I have heard a few people say lately that there is more money making potential in MTT's than SnG's is this true? Has anyone else thought about switching to MTT's. Do you really think there is more money to be made there?

[yvesaint]

i hope you like variance and post-flop poker

[curtains]

I cant imagine having a higher expectation in todays online multis. First of all they take forever, second of all the max buyins are quite small. Third you have to play on a schedule and sometimes can only get into a few at the same time.

[async]

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I cant imagine having a higher expectation in todays online multis. First of all they take forever, second of all the max buyins are quite small. Third you have to play on a schedule and sometimes can only get into a few at the same time.

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Does Tiger Woods ponder if he'd be better at stock car racing?

I can only say that I have been playing both (not enough for statistics to matter much yet), and the play at the MTTs seems way, way softer. Super-LAGs everywhere. I occasionally see a super-lag blow up at a STT, but it's just one. In MTTs, I often see a table that seems to be 80%+ superlag. When was the last time you saw a 6-way all-in in a STT? It seems the rebuy period in rebuy MTTs is the surest way to see maniacs gone wild. Is this high variance? No doubt. But it's hard to imagine it isn't more profitable than STTs. (I also think there is a wider skill set needed for MTT play, which I don't mean as offense to STT players, as I play a lot more hours of STTs than MTTs and, as I said, the MTTs I feel are softer)

[yvesaint]

lmao, the rebuy period of an MTT is the best time to get chips. its also probably the least crucial period of the MTT.

[Bigwig]

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I have heard a few people say lately that there is more money making potential in MTT's than SnG's is this true? Has anyone else thought about switching to MTT's. Do you really think there is more money to be made there?

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I play both. My rate of winning at MTT's has been pretty high over the last six months. However, it's impossible to play 8 of them at a time at a proper buy-in. It's also difficult to schedule. And the variance is huge. But, per table played, I think there is more to be made at MTT's.

[swiftrhett]

It is clear that a good MTT player has a higher ROI than a good STT player. It's just that you can open up to 10 identical STT's any time of day that end in an hour, of various buyins.

[tjh]

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I cant imagine having a higher expectation in todays online multis. First of all they take forever, second of all the max buyins are quite small. Third you have to play on a schedule and sometimes can only get into a few at the same time.

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I don't know if I agree with the take forever statement. Yes they do take a bit of time but if I am playing 300 players then isn't it similar to playing 30 STT's ? So the time may average out.

Longer time yes but bigger payout compared to buyin ?

I wonder where the bad players go. I imagine STT cause they are in a hurry to get action, yet I would also say MTT cause they want to play a WSOP style game.

One or the other has to have more dead money. Of course the Final Table in a MTT is likely to have some real competition, whereas in a STT you do not have to worry about facing the best players, who you start with is who you end with.

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tjh

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tjh

Well.. you're not actually playing against 300 players... I would say you probably only play 4-5 tables, which sort of works out in the time it takes too (most MTTs last 4-5 hours from my own experience). But the variance in MTTs is quite higher. You have to survive quite a few showdowns to reach final table.. Not to mention post flop play.. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Theduke211]

Im fairly new to MTT's and STG's. I must say that from a POKER perspective MTT's is the way to go. I have played maybe 20-30 MTT this month have finished in the money about half the time, give or take and have had two final tables. One that I won $6/196 players and a fourth place $22/2448 players. I feel that there is definatly more money to be made, particularly compared to the buy-in in the MTT's. Just from the two im up $4k (nearly) and risked $28. For the others I finished about even. If you are willing to play the already mentioned post flop poker the players really are weak up untill the last 5% or so and at that point youve made some good money. You will definately see money less often with the MTT. For now I am just trying to stay away from the cash games and keep learning to succeed at both.

[yvesaint]

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Just from the two im up $4k (nearly) and risked $28.

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wow, really? i know someone that from just one (just one!) tournament is up $135k and only risked $215! man what a profit!!

Actually before I become a memeber I have two nubish questions that still need to be answered.

1. Is it possible to be successful at STT's and MTT's and still not be a successful ring game player?

2. What is pwned!!!??

[yvesaint]

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1. Is it possible to be successful at STT's and MTT's and still not be a successful ring game player?


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yes, a lot of online STT/MTT players from what ive seen dont know what to do once their stack has 200+ BBs

[Theduke211]

Ive played a couple of those tourneys as gifts to myself. There is def. a lot less dead money. I quit bc they are too hard for me to bankroll. I can comfortably play 30+3 and less and feel that with some more work could really start making some money. But Im about to start tracking my buy ins for both right now starting with 5 $11 SNGs before bed.

[Taraz]

Aside from variance I think the MTT vs SNG question is a question about hourly rate (SNGs) vs. ROI (MTT). If you can only play 1 table at a time, MTTs are probably the way to go.

[EnderFFX]

"Im fairly new to MTT's and STG's. I must say that from a POKER perspective MTT's is the way to go. I have played maybe 20-30 MTT this month have finished in the money about half the time, give or take and have had two final tables. One that I won $6/196 players and a fourth place $22/2448 players."

Small sample size. Congrats on the money. Hopefully you know that keeping this rate up really isn't possible.

"I feel that there is definatly more money to be made, particularly compared to the buy-in in the MTT's. Just from the two im up $4k (nearly) and risked $28. For the others I finished about even."

Most single table tournaments only offer up to a 400% ROI for the top prize, where MTT offer much much more. (stating the obvious I know)

"If you are willing to play the already mentioned post flop poker the players really are weak up untill the last 5% or so and at that point youve made some good money. You will definately see money less often with the MTT. For now I am just trying to stay away from the cash games and keep learning to succeed at both."

The attraction of STT (espeically the low level tournaments) is the horrible players and the ease of money from a good push strategy. This mindless way of playing allows players to play 10+ tables at a time. A nice 10% roi, on a $22 gets you $2.20 a tournament, playing 10 at a time gets you around $20-$25 an hour at 10% roi. A good player can get the number of tables higher as well as the ROI higher. The variance is smaller (ITM, 35-40% of the time) and the required bankroll is smaller as well.

From my experience, I would suggest picking either STT or MTT and focus on one.

[Degen]

Funny there are all these SNG v MTT threads last few days. I've recently decided to go full-time MTT, not necessarily for overall profit potential but because the grind of SNG's was getting to me a bit, MTT's are very stimulating and make you have to think and study a great deal more.

I'd not reccomend them for anybody with a weak stomach, low tolerance for variance or a short bankroll.

[zipppy]

I think it's important to note that you don't have to play amazing post flop poker to be successful at MTTs, at least not at 30s and below. It would of course reduce variance a lot, but simply being patient and disciplined throughout an MTT (which can be very tough) can be very profitable long term.

zip

Well...at least to me... MTT's can be VERY profitable. Bigger return on the investment, but more time invested as well. ( Like someone said though it might even out time wise ).

I am by NO means a pro. But even I have managed to win 2 MTT's in the last year ( @ $10k ) plus 3 final tables and by my stat book over 30 finishes in the money.

I only started keeping track in Nov of 04, but since then I've made a bit over $11k on MTT's. This is over and above all buy in's / entry fee's. This is just MTT's.

So like I said I'm no pro.

But I've played in 5 in the last month...working on REALLY playing the ONE tourney and taking plenty of notes on the players...I've moneyed 4 of 5.

I like a SUPER tight / aggressive style until after the first break. Then I'll add maybe 5 hands to my start list until the 2nd break.

Seems like if I wait on STRONG hands, and stop limping in with crap like KJ, or KTs etc... I don't have to question in my mind ( most times ) if I have the best hand or not. And the strong hands will still get paid.

The time to get AGGRESSIVE ( if you have the chips or if you need 'em ) is when the bubble is approaching...especially when it goes hand to hand play. Pick on the short stacks and the medium stacks. They don't want to fight, they just want to money...

Once the bubble ends. TIGHTEN BACK UP and wait on monsters. Because all the short to medium stacks figure they are in the money now, they have nothing to lose, and they see the blinds getting bigger so they will be going in hard looking to double up. When the small stacks start to fade...then you can settle and find the tight / passive players ( steal blinds ) and the loose cannons... ( who will pay you big on your good hands ).

The variance is this.

In EVERY tourney, live or online, that I've won or done well in... my tourney life ( or close to it ) has come down to a coin flip AT LEAST 4-5 times. If this is not, you're lucky and probably getting good cards.

HTH

I would love to play more MTTs, but I just don't have the time.

There are now some multi-table SNGs being offered on pokerroom.com (where I play cuz its Mac compatible) - but the payouts are more concentrated. A 2 table SNG pays the top 4, a 3 table SNG pays the top 5 - so if you finish ITM, you get a pretty good payout, but its harder to finish ITM.

[benfranklin]

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Just from the two im up $4k (nearly) and risked $28.

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wow, really? i know someone that from just one (just one!) tournament is up $135k and only risked $215! man what a profit!!

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wow, really? i know someone that from just one (just one!) tournament is up $7.5 million and only risked $10k! man what a profit!!

[curtains]

MTTs control your life and your schedule, SNGs don't. I love MTT's but they are simply an impractical way to play poker if you focus on them entirely. That's my opinion at least.

[Jbrochu]

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In MTTs, I often see a table that seems to be 80%+ superlag.

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I agree, but my problem is 20% of the superlags are really good players, and I cannot tell them apart from the superlag donks (until they have my chips, anyway).

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I would love to play more MTTs, but I just don't have the time.

There are now some multi-table SNGs being offered on pokerroom.com (where I play cuz its Mac compatible) - but the payouts are more concentrated. A 2 table SNG pays the top 4, a 3 table SNG pays the top 5 - so if you finish ITM, you get a pretty good payout, but its harder to finish ITM.

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I enjoy the 2, 3, and 5 table SNGs at PS. In my (limited) experience, the higher payouts more than make up for the less frequent ITM finishes.

And, for those who want a taste of MTT play without the potential for 6-8 hours of play, you might want to try the 20 table "SNG" at PS. From what I've seen, they generally take four hours.

[A_PLUS]

There arent many pure (online) MTT pros out there.In fact, I would estimate the number of players making over 25K a year playing online poker, MTT only players would rank below SNGs, NLHE ring, and Limit Ring (in to particular order).

This is mostly due to the variance, and limitted number of large events. A very good MTT player could easily lose money for months and months. That isnt as true in the other games.
For the vast majority of players, I think SNGs are more profitable if you at least 4-table. There are very few players that could handle being a MTT only pro. I really cant imagine the stress that would cause. Take you worst SNG beat, and multiply it by 100. God bless you Degen, best of luck

[Jbrochu]

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Is it possible to be successful at STT's and MTT's and still not be a successful ring game player?

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Yes, but you're less likely to be successful at MTT's without being at least a decent ring game player, IMO.

I am not a pro, not even close.

My strategy these days is to play both. I try to get in about 20-30 SNGs a day at various times in my home office between putting in hours as a part-time solo attorney. In the evening (5pm and beyond) I then play an MTT or two (or sometimes three) while hanging in the family room with my family (not great for focus but it is comfortable to play from my recliner by the fireplace in front of the big screen).

I have been doing this for about a month or so off and on and have hit on a $4k 2nd place in a $33 MTT and have made the money a bunch of times. I'm about even at the SNGs, unfortunately, but have been studying hand histories and it mostly seems to be variance.

At any rate, I hope to be able to keep this up. I am enjoying it so far and I believe it to have serious profit potential.

By the way, the point I was trying to make was that for me mixing between MTT and SNG keeps things fresh and challenging. I do not think I could grind out 50-100 SNGs a day like some do, and I do not think I could handle the variance (at this point, at least) and schedule demand that would go with doing all MTTs, just like I could not handle 12+ hours a day in a huge law firm 6 days a week (that sucked!).

I don't see any problem with mixing up SNGs and MTTs unless you are depending on it for month to month income or don't feel capable of shifting gears in the manner required or don't have time to put into the study required to do both successfully.

[Vuron00]

I believe that there might be more money making potential for a casual player at MTT's than SnG's. One big cash in a MTT is all you need to shoot your ROI into the 1000's.

Placing high in a few MTT's will definately have a higher payday if you can only play a few SnG's a week.

If you can 8 table SnG's and pump out 500 games a week, I believe that you'll make more $/hour than dealing with MTT's.

I have read the posts and I have concluded that,

MTT's have a mich higher varience than SNG's not to mention scheduling conflicts. Also they are very time consuming. I have decided to mix it up and stick with mostly SnG's and throw in the occasional MTT. You guys think this is a wise choice?

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I have read the posts and I have concluded that,

MTT's have a mich higher varience than SNG's not to mention scheduling conflicts. Also they are very time consuming. I have decided to mix it up and stick with mostly SnG's and throw in the occasional MTT. You guys think this is a wise choice?

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I'm no pro, but this is what I do. I still play the ring games, more for a steady income. But I find I am gravitating more and more to the SNG's. I find them more fun. But I am starting to throw in MTT's on the weekends, and I am loving it. I really look forward to the Friday and Saturday nights (if not the lack of sleep - hopefully).

Whether its wise or not, who knows. But it seems to be working for me.

The 180man sng's are great, just stared playing them a month ago... after 19 of them I am itm in 8 with a 482% ROI

They are very weak with incredible amounts of bad players

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I can only say that I have been playing both (not enough for statistics to matter much yet), and the play at the MTTs seems way, way softer.

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Strongly agreed. I play about half turbo SNGs and half non-turbos and MTTs (180x$20 mostly) at PS. The quality of play is massively different in the non-turbos--as very few of you fine folks hang out there /images/graemlins/wink.gif. I love the post-flop play of the MTTs and non-turbos and late MTT decisions.

[Jack Fate]

I'm a part time player and a high school teacher. I 4-table the 109 sngs when I have the free time. And I play full time on my vacations. The hourly rate is very good and steady for sngs, but I like MTTs because of the ability to make a big score. So, when I have the time I will play a MTT, but I will only play those that have a prize pool of $150k + otherwise I don't feel it's worth my time.

As far as improving poker skills, I think the two games compliment each other well. Certainly, a good SNG player is at an advantage late in the tournament when most players have less than 20 BBs. You're going to feel right at home in this situation, and a lot of your opponents will not have a good understanding of all-in strategy.

[Vetstadium]

I 8 table the SNG's and mix a MTT in at from another site treat it same as SNG until first break. When I start getting towards the money I will not start any more SNG's and concentrate on the MTT. Seems to work pretty well most of my buyins are $50 and below at the MTT say no more than 400 players. Don't really keep good records (on MTT play but in last year won 3 and prob 10 or so final tables). These are not big scores say 2-3K each.