J4s

[newhizzle]

MP1 is TAG 16/12/2.3 after 21,000 hands, as far as i can remember i have no real history with him

MP2 is a donkey 50/12/1.1

Party Poker 30.00/60.00 Hold'em <font color="#0000FF">(9 handed)</font> link (http://www.darksun.lunarpages.com/poker/)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.75 BB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks.

River: (5.75 BB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>...

[goofball]

I understand your thinking, MP2 probably doesn't check the turn with a pair, so his most likely holding is a deuce. But those this to be worth it, you have to have MP2 beat, and MP1 has to have you beat and not call. I dunno, seems like a lot of trouble for a 6BB pot.

PREFLOP: I would fold, I dont think J4s is a profitable call out of the BB getting 7-1.

FLOP: Looks right, you have enough to peal.

TURN: Standard

RIVER: The problem I have with this play is that the MP2 player actually couldve checked the turn with a pair higher than yours cuz he mightve feared that you had the flush and he didnt want to get checkraised. I do however believe that the Tag is folding this river to your raise every time even if he has a better hand than you, so you have that much going for you. And I also think if the MP2 guy has a better hand than you, which I believe he does, He is never folding. Once again, this is a debatable play, I wouldve folded the river.

[toss]

I thought it was profitable to call with any two suited getting 7:1 on the BB. I even heard that it was profitable calling with any two suited on the BB versus one raiser and one caller. I don't know about my second statement though.

On the river you're raising to get MP1 to lay down a pocket pair under A or K, but won't he have just as much trouble overcalling if you just call?

[goofball]

I've recently instituted a policy of calling with any two out of the BB if there's a raiser and 1 caller. I'll let you know how it's working out after a while.

[ QUOTE ]
I thought it was profitable to call with any two suited getting 7:1 on the BB. I even heard that it was profitable calling with any two suited on the BB versus one raiser and one caller. I don't know about my second statement though.

On the river you're raising to get MP1 to lay down a pocket pair under A or K, but won't he have just as much trouble overcalling if you just call?

[/ QUOTE ]
I honestly dont know for sure if its profitable or not, getting 7-1 with any two suited, I just assumed it wasnt.
I could be wrong but I really think it's -EV.

[rmarotti]

[ QUOTE ]
seems like a lot of trouble for a 6BB pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

[toss]

Well we flop a flush .8% of the time, a flush draw 10.9%, two pair 2.02%, a pair 33%. Getting 7:1 we can probably turn a profit.

[newhizzle]

im usually plaing any two suited in this spot, that may be wrong, i dont know

anyway, my thoughts on the river were that MP1 likely had something like 77-QQ and i want him out, i figured MP2 had two cards that might have had something to do with the board

as toss said, MP1 probably wouldnt have overcalled anyway, so i guess it may not be worth the raise

MP1 thought for a minute and folded, i got lucky and MP2 had 33 and payed me off, i dont know how often im going to be ahead of him in the long-run and MP1 may fold his pair anyway, so i guess a call is best, maybe a fold

it was definately pretty phat to extract the max from 33 though /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Well we flop a flush .8% of the time, a flush draw 10.9%, two pair 2.02%, a pair 33%. Getting 7:1 we can probably turn a profit.

[/ QUOTE ]
I do not think the hero will turn a profit getting 7:1 with this hand, It would be nice if someone could prove me wrong here, since playing more hands = more fun. So if anyone has any strong evidence on this one feel free to comment.

[newhizzle]

here (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&amp;Number=4056996&amp;an=0&amp;page=0#Post 4056996) is a thread where this was recently discussed in high stakes

i dont really feel like reading through it right now, but i think the general consensus was that you should play any suited from the BB if at least one cold-caller is in, anyway, you may find this interesting

Thanx for the link newhizzle, although I doubt any concensus will change my thinking. I think what it would take is if Ed Miller, Mason Malmuth or David Sklansky came out and proved this was a profitable call, then I would change my disposition.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanx for the link newhizzle, although I doubt any concensus will change my thinking. I think what it would take is if Ed Miller, Mason Malmuth or David Sklansky came out and proved this was a profitable call, then I would change my disposition.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe David has stated that this is a profitable call in the past. I don't have the thread onhand. I'm pretty sure that it isn't hard to turn a profit relative to folding here in a 4-way pot.

Rob

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Thanx for the link newhizzle, although I doubt any concensus will change my thinking. I think what it would take is if Ed Miller, Mason Malmuth or David Sklansky came out and proved this was a profitable call, then I would change my disposition.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe David has stated that this is a profitable call in the past. I don't have the thread onhand. I'm pretty sure that it isn't hard to turn a profit relative to folding here in a 4-way pot.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]
I this thread with David in it could be found or if David came out and said this is a profitable call, then I would change my tune.