Question For Raptor (Re: Why aren't you better?)

[Afterh0urs]

I usually agree with most of Raptor's posts, but this last one about chipping up in the early stages of 215s has me confused.

"this means not folding AQ from the bb on lvl 2 to a SINGLE raise to 90. this means being able to play a flop, turn, and river well. this means implementing cash game strategies to gain chips in the early stages of the stt. thats really all there is to it. "

Now, I agree that you need to open up your hand selection more in the early levels, but I don't really think playing these marginal hands out of position is the way to go about it.

When I'm opening up my hand selection, I'm looking to get into position with hands that have the potential to flop big... whenever my immediate goal of taking the pot down on the flop doesnt work. I found this to be a more effective way of gathering chips than by making the marginal calls from the big blind.

What am I missing out on? What's your standard for playing the AQ out of the big blind against a standard raise from a standard 215 opponent?

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
I usually agree with most of Raptor's posts, but this last one about chipping up in the early stages of 215s has me confused.

"this means not folding AQ from the bb on lvl 2 to a SINGLE raise to 90. this means being able to play a flop, turn, and river well. this means implementing cash game strategies to gain chips in the early stages of the stt. thats really all there is to it. "

Now, I agree that you need to open up your hand selection more in the early levels, but I don't really think playing these marginal hands out of position is the way to go about it.

When I'm opening up my hand selection, I'm looking to get into position with hands that have the potential to flop big... whenever my immediate goal of taking the pot down on the flop doesnt work. I found this to be a more effective way of gathering chips than by making the marginal calls from the big blind.

What am I missing out on? What's your standard for playing the AQ out of the big blind against a standard raise from a standard 215 opponent?

[/ QUOTE ]

PM him.

[Irieguy]

Don't call out players by name in the title of threads. It's rude, and nobody likes it.

You've already been given one suggestion about how to reach Raptor if he's the one you want to talk to.

Your question is legitimate and a good discussion on the topic does not require personalizing the title.

I know you didn't mean anything by it, but it is a frequent enough breach of etiquette that I thought I would mention it.

Irieguy

[Freudian]

I don't think Raptor minds. The OP didn't say anything negative about Raptor, just asked him to elaborate on a piece of strategy he wrote.

[Afterh0urs]

Raptor isn't the only one I want to discuss it with, but since it's his quote that I'm referencing, I figured it would be appropriate to address him.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't call out players by name in the title of threads. It's rude, and nobody likes it.

You've already been given one suggestion about how to reach Raptor if he's the one you want to talk to.

Your question is legitimate and a good discussion on the topic does not require personalizing the title.

I know you didn't mean anything by it, but it is a frequent enough breach of etiquette that I thought I would mention it.

Irieguy

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, its much more appropriate and polite to produce a veiled insult against another player without mentioning their name, yet making it very obvious who this person is. I am of course referring to your post from many months ago where you went out of your way to say how wrong I was about many topics and how I probably wasn't even a winning player, but slyly went about excluding my handle from the post and instead referred to me as a "prolific poster who everyone thinks is good that excels at other games", so as to make it seem as if you weren't directly attacking one player in particular.

If anyone wants to see that post, here it is http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/show...rue#Post2507004 (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Board=singletable&Number=25 07004&Searchpage=1&Main=2500213&Words=+Irieguy&top ic=&Search=true#Post2507004)


I don't want to get into that again, but don't get all high and mighty about stuff like this. I have behaved rudely and badly on here, you have behaved rudely, and neither of us have made any admission that they behaved like a child (Okay Im sort of doing so right now). In any case it's hard for me to give much weight to moral advice given to someone who would post something such as that which I linked to above.

In any case I don't see anything wrong with the post title.

[The Don]

Wait, so calling in the BB with AQ to a 3x BB raise isn't standard? I must have missed something...

Yes, please don't kill the poker part of this thread. I'd love to hear a discussion on this as well.

[zipppy]

Also, is it different for 800 chips games, or is calling a raise only appropriate with 1000 starting?

Zipppy

[curtains]

I don't usually call a 3x BB raise from early position from the BB with AQo early on,

[Newt_Buggs]

lol, chill curtains


"this means not folding AQ from the bb on lvl 2 to a SINGLE raise to 90."

this quote still makes me laugh, raptor knows why /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[curtains]

Anyway don't believe the hype. If you play perfectly on the bubble and late (which almost no one does, despite the fact that there is a myth that all good players do), then you can win a huge amount playing like a total rock early on. At least that's my opinion and experience, and is the same of other tight players I know who play the $215s.

[johnnybeef]

Ok Afterhours, here is the deal. Please excuse the cliche, but there is more than one way to skin a cat. Raptor has an incredible table feel and outstanding hand reading skills. His strength is his post flop skill. Curtains is someone who plays near perfect preflop poker. Both of these guys have addopted styles that work for them (and probably also mesh with their personalitys.) I recommend that you don't ask players what should I do with X hand in situation Y, as you are going to get a million different answers. Rather, ask yourself what type of person am I, what are the strengths in my game, what will lead me to the most profitable path. The three best books that I have read on tournament poker were written by vastly different players who all have very different styles. Dan Harrington is an ultra tight conservative player who excels at putting himself in non marginal situations. Erick Lindgrenn is a highly loose aggressive player who can play a wide range of hands due to his superior hand reading skills. Phil Gordon is kind of in between these two. He plays rather tight up front, but will get creative later on. I recommend reading these three books to understand the difference between the styles, find some elements of each that you like, and apply them to your game. In the future, when you ask a poster something, dont ask "what should I do," ask "why do you do." You will come out a better player because of it.

[Afterh0urs]

Thanks Johnny. I understand the differences in playing styles, lol. I've had good success in the 215s and I consider myself a bit looser than the average 2+2er who beats that game. But, I play the gap principle to the extreme in the early levels. I routinely fold AQ to raisers from a non-donk in level 2, as to me, the fact that you're out of position with a marginal hand here makes this an extremely marginal situation.

I wasn't trying to ask for advice so that I can blindly follow it. I was just trying to figure out what the rationale was behind making these type of calls out of position, because currently, they seem like a losing play to me (But I just consider myself above average postflop, not a genius).

Thanks for the book recommendations though. I never read a complete poker book, so I'm gonna give those a look to get more insight as to how the other type of players play.

[curtains]

btw a lot of your style should tie into the prize structure as well. The prize structure for S+G's in general reward a very tight survivalist style, whereas the prize structure for Multis rewards more swashbuckling and gambling styles. It's important to be able to switch back and forth depending on the prize structure of whatever game you are playing. I mean if the top 9 places were paid on a sliding scale, then it would almost always be correct to be a ridiculous tightass against poor opponents. At some point the prize structure makes it so that it becomes correct to loosen up more.

I believe the 50-30-20 prize structure rewards tight play very much, especially against the quality of opponents that one faces, and if you play nearly perfectly late in the event.

I believe that for almost everyone the best thing to do is to simply play tight early and learn how to play well in the late-middle stages when most of your plays are allin or calls of allins. Im sure that other styles work for other players. I do know some relatively loose players who do very well at the $215s as well, although their sample sizes are very small and I'm hesitant to read much into their results just yet. I've also known many players who attempt to "open up their game" and became on the receiving end of very long and pronounced slumps, and they basically give up sit and gos.

For the most part I think that people need to work on their shortstack, late game play more than anything, and their instincts in such situations. I simply believe that all the tight players who don't win so much, probably don't because they remain too tight late in the event or because they don't play headsup nearly perfectly or whatever.

[pergesu]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, please don't kill the poker part of this thread. I'd love to hear a discussion on this as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bones and I agree. Give me a good flame war over playing AQ from the BB.

[jeffraider]

[ QUOTE ]

Bones and I agree. Give me a good flame war over playing AQ from the BB.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a clear STOP AND GO. When you send 900 chips sailing into the middle on any flop to capture the 200 that are already in there it shows these donkeys you mean businesses.

[Cactus Jack]

Jeffraider, was this a tongue-in-cheek reply? It would surely send a message, but I'm not sure it's the message you intend to send...or is it?

I've not played any SNGs over a hundred, so I'm curious as to how others would react if they saw this move. Way more aggro than I could stand to be, that's for sure, even at low limits.

Is this an unusual play in the nosebleed sections?

CJ

[ QUOTE ]
Ok Afterhours, here is the deal. Please excuse the cliche, but there is more than one way to skin a cat. Raptor has an incredible table feel and outstanding hand reading skills. His strength is his post flop skill. Curtains is someone who plays near perfect preflop poker. Both of these guys have addopted styles that work for them (and probably also mesh with their personalitys.) I recommend that you don't ask players what should I do with X hand in situation Y, as you are going to get a million different answers. Rather, ask yourself what type of person am I, what are the strengths in my game, what will lead me to the most profitable path. The three best books that I have read on tournament poker were written by vastly different players who all have very different styles. Dan Harrington is an ultra tight conservative player who excels at putting himself in non marginal situations. Erick Lindgrenn is a highly loose aggressive player who can play a wide range of hands due to his superior hand reading skills. Phil Gordon is kind of in between these two. He plays rather tight up front, but will get creative later on. I recommend reading these three books to understand the difference between the styles, find some elements of each that you like, and apply them to your game. In the future, when you ask a poster something, dont ask "what should I do," ask "why do you do." You will come out a better player because of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's just not true. The game that we play is very interesting, but it's not so interesting that there's actually more than one optimal play in many situations.

What's a good estimate of EP raising standards in the 215s?

[jeffraider]

[ QUOTE ]
Jeffraider, was this a tongue-in-cheek reply? It would surely send a message, but I'm not sure it's the message you intend to send...or is it?

I've not played any SNGs over a hundred, so I'm curious as to how others would react if they saw this move. Way more aggro than I could stand to be, that's for sure, even at low limits.

Is this an unusual play in the nosebleed sections?

CJ

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I was just joking for sure. I'm not really the type to recommend a postflop play without having a quick peek at the flop first. /images/graemlins/smile.gif