Two little pair on 5th

[rtrombone]

Commerce 20-40. Decent game. Was great for a while when two guys who had never played before sat down. One dropped three racks in like an hour. Unfortunately, I didn't get any hands during this time.

I bring it in with (10 3) 2. A bunch of people limp in. On 4th I catch another 10, giving me (10 3) 2 10. A guy to my right bets with K /forums/images/icons/club.gif 6 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif . Bettor is not that great, a little loose, a little aggressive. He's running pretty good though. I raise. A couple guys call two cold, bettor calls.

I catch another 3 on 5th. Now I have (10 3) 2 10 3. The bettor catches the A /forums/images/icons/heart.gif , giving him K /forums/images/icons/club.gif 6 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif A /forums/images/icons/heart.gif . He bets into me again.

What's your play?

[rtrombone]

I thought this was a clear raise or fold situation. I decided that he was on some kind of draw since he'd check-raised with big hands before. I raised. Somebody who must have been on a club draw called two cold. To my dismay, the K /forums/images/icons/club.gif 6 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif A /forums/images/icons/heart.gif guy now 3-bet. Both of us called.

I caught a blank on 6th and the 3-bettor caught the K /forums/images/icons/spade.gif , giving him a board of k /forums/images/icons/club.gif 6 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif A /forums/images/icons/heart.gif K /forums/images/icons/spade.gif . I mucked to his bet. Maybe I should have called, since there 13 big bets+ in the pot. On second thought, I definitely should have, even though I may have been drawing dead.

I never found out what the guy had. Club draw guy didn't get there and released his hand at 7th. I put the loose aggressive on at least aces up.

[Andy B]

I haven't read the results yet. It would be helpful to know what was behind you and how likely they were to call two bets cold. I would probably raise in an effort, possibly futile, to get it heads-up. If the other guys call anyway, then you'll be getting odds, more or less, to draw to your full house. /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif If raising won't drive the other guys out, I think I'd just call and see what happens.

I probably wouldn't have made the fourth-street raise, but I'm not going to say it was incorrect. Your side cards aren't particularly helpful. If you can get it heads-up on fourth, great, but if you can reasonably anticipate that a couple of guys will call two cold, I would just call and hope I hit something.

If it's any consolation, I don't think anyone really knows how to play hands like Tens-up.

[Andy B]

When he three-bets, I think you're most likely up against Aces and Sixes, or maybe trip Sixes. When he hits his door card, you should probably feel a little sick. You might see the river, but you probably can't raise even if you make a full house. I don't think that folding on sixth was bad at all.

[MRBAA]

I wouldn't have called on fourth. Sure you might be ahead here, but you can't play your hand very confidently. Make one of your side cards an ace, then you've got a chance. As it is, just release this crap hand and wait for a better gambling opportunity.

[Michael Davis]

I haven't looked at the results yet, but I would call him on 5th and raise him up on 6th if he doesn't improve on board.

EDIT: For some reason, I thought the hand was heads up. Since it wasn't, I definitely would have raised 5th. There's no way he has you beat.

-Mike

[Michael Davis]

I don't think folding on fourth is a good play.

This player is described as loose-aggressive, yet he did not raise coming in with a K up. He may not have anything at this point, and the hands he could have are more likely to involve sixes than kings, I think.

Granted, this situation is marginal, and depends on factors not outlined in the original post, but raising is the way to go here. There's already decent money in the pot and you might have the best hand. I'm not worried about confidence: a marginal situation is what it is, but this one is definitely on the +EV side of the margin, IMO.

-Mike

[Wombat6]

when you say a little loose a little aggressive does that include that he may be somewhat of a overzelous bluffer or semi bluffer. are his open cards live as well.

My play flat call early or late if your cards quite live and if most the table will pay off if you open pair. these others have decided to play as well and if this guy is going to bet into a field of callers he probably has a hand that can become strong like AXs buried.

Wombat6

[SittingBull]

[SittingBull]

backdoor Str8,flush,MUCK it on 3rd. EVEN if the player has a small/medium pair with the "K",his "K" is STILL LIVE--hence,there is a good chance that he will connect with another "K" on a later Str. But this folding IS marginal--u can connect with a set on some later Str. too.
However,since I'm a tight player,I would fold on 3rd.
HappyPokering, /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif
SittingBull

[rtrombone]

I brought it in. You don't muck your hand in this situation, no matter how bad, right? /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif

Given that I was stuck with it, what do you think about the later streets?

[Chris Nichelson]

I raise here to clear out the other callers, or fold, depending on the liveness of the 10s and 3s and also on the liveness of the Aces, Kings, and Hearts. Even one ten or three out when the better has all live cards and I will just muck it here in the multiway situation.

If anyone calls behind me or if the bettor three bets, I might consider completely shutting down or folding at the next opportunity, but generally, I am going to raise on 5, check on sixth, and call on the river in this situation.

[SittingBull]

"K" completes the bet. Even if he is playing small/medium pr with live kicker,u are in too much danger of being beaten. He still has several cards to improve his hand. And if he holds a live pocket pr., U will not be able to read him for a set if he connects. On the other hand,a player can more easily put U on a set if u obtain a pr of opened 10's. Hence,U have NO implied odds--whereas,the 'k' does. However,if u have some live BACKDOOR equity with your live T's on 4th,then it's definitely a "green light".
**************************
OK-- U played and connected with 10's up. At this point,with live prs,I would have checked/called 5th .This strategy will cost U min loss when u have worst hand and max win when your oppon has little or nothing. Of course,folding on 6th when your oppo. improved with opened K's was an excellent move.
HappyPokering, /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif
SittingBull

[rtrombone]

You have some good points regarding how obvious my hand is. But the bettor's hand is obvious, too. This guy would have completed at 3rd with split kings. He's got at best a pair of sixes. I ran this simulation on two dimes:

pokenum -mc 500000 -7s tc 3s td 2c - 6h ad 6s kc
7-card Stud Hi: 500000 sampled outcomes
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
3s Tc 2c Td 273583 54.72 226417 45.28 0 0.00 0.547
6s Kc Ad 6h 226417 45.28 273583 54.72 0 0.00 0.453

I'm not sure if the suits are correct and I'm just speculating as to the bettor's hand. I think all our cards were live. As you can see, even with two overcards to my pair of tens, I'm the favorite.

I can't see folding here. It seems like an incredibly weak play. Especially if a raise will get it heads up. You have the best of it. Even if he does have a pocket pair instead of the hand I'm pretty sure he had, I don't think he will catch often enough to make up for the times he does not improve and must fold at 5th. Because with something like sevens in the hole, you can't continue to chase a guy with an obvious pair of tens, right?

I don't like calling on 5th, either. Either the guy has aces up or he's getting cute. If it's the former I should fold, if it's the latter I should raise. How can calling be correct? If he has aces up I don't think I'm getting the proper odds to call a big bet. If he's drawing, I have to make him pay. If you call, do you plan to just call him on 6th and 7th, too? I have to think this plan is a money-loser in the long run.

[SittingBull]

calling on 5th,lose MIN when u do not have the best hand. Also gives u a cheap card to maybe fill on 6th. however,once u see his K's on board,it's a fold
happyPokering,
SittingBull /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif