JJ in BB, your play?

[fnurt]

$200 NL tourney on PokerStars, about 200 players left, top 63 get paid. I have 9k which is about an average stack. Blinds are 200/400 with 25 ante.

I get dealt JJ in the big blind. Folded around to button who makes it 1600 to go, his stack is about as big as mine. SB has about 4k and goes all-in.

I haven't been at the table long but both of them seem normal so far. What's your play here?

[Justaloser]

I know what I've learned to do here. Fold.

What I'm thinking is this. If either of them has AA, KK or QQ, you're in big trouble. If they have AK, AQ (or to a lesser extent AJ), it's a coin flip. Unless you're sure about what they'd play (and you stated you weren't in this case), I'd let them fight it out and live to fight another day. If you call, you've got to worry about the button (who has position on you) and you've got no idea where you stand. You're basically hoping to flop a set at that point. You could raise to try and get the button out, but then you have to worry about whether or not you're behind against both the button and the SB.

By folding, you can get more information about both players (although maybe not much), and you're not risking any chips in the process.

Also it's still relatively far out of the money, no reason to gamble half your stack.

[Men the Master]

Call, of course! The button was obviously stealing with Q-8. SB naturally knew this and was making a re-steal with AJ. Your JJ is a super-mega-powerhouse dominator at this point.

[sam h]

All-in. JJ should be a significant favorite against the range of hands an openraising button and a shortstacked SB should have in this situation. This is a good spot to gamble.

[John_Manley]

My first response is to fold. In reality though it depends on how those players had been playing earlier. Do they do a lot of bluffing. Does the SB guy go over the top a lot. If both of these are true then you very well may have the best hand. Unfortunately JJ gets beat by a lot of mediocre hands and unless I was confident about a bluff I would fold. Remember when you are out you are out and when you are out you have failed.

[Rickfish]

Without reading other's replies I would say fold. I don't like the all-in by the SB because a) he should have a decent hand which may be better than JJ and b) there is no chance of winning the whole pot by raising or betting the flop. In favour of calling, the all-in should stop the button bluffing the flop if it comes, say, K82. It think I probably prefer re-raising to calling because I might win a 10,000 side-pot even if I lose to the SB. But this is a high risk strategy. In addition, it is quite likely that the button will fold leaving you heads up with the SB. While that may seem attractive it is likely that he has 2 overcards or an overpair if he is a solid player. But you never know on Pokerstars - it depends whether he is one of the ones who overplays medium (or even small) pairs.

I think I prefer to keep my 9000 intact and wait for a better situation.

[sam h]

"Unfortunately JJ gets beat by a lot of mediocre hands"

So does AA. If you are afraid to stack off with JJ against mediocre hands like A5 here because you will get beat 30% of the time, then you will never have much success in tournaments.

"Remember when you are out you are out and when you are out you have failed."

This is a bad way to think about poker in general and poker tournaments in particular.

[sam h]

"What I'm thinking is this. If either of them has AA, KK or QQ, you're in big trouble. If they have AK, AQ (or to a lesser extent AJ), it's a coin flip."

You're a big favorite over AJ - that's definitely not a coin flip. Why do you think that these players are likely to have AA, KK, or QQ?

[Justaloser]

I only included AJ because that is a hand that many will go all-in with. You're right that it's not a coin flip, which is why it was noted as an exception.

Why do I put them on big hands? Because it's a lot SAFER to do so. If I put them on AA and KK, then it's an easy fold. If I decide that one is stealing with QJs and the other decided to pop him off with 99, then I'm asking for trouble.

As I said before, this to me is not a gambling spot. Why? Because he said that he was new to the table and wasn't sure of their playstyles. If he had seen bluffs and snapoffs, I think he would have a better idea how to play his cards. Fnurt is a very good tourney player, so I can't recommend that he gamble his chips like that. If we were discussing a weaker player who's best chance of winning was reliant on "getting lucky" then all-in is a much better choice.

I stick by my statement of mucking and waiting for a better spot. He's got good chip position, and if they will make a bad mistake here, they're likely to make it again when you can take advantage.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

Calling would be a big mistake, in my mind. I would hate to entice the button to call with AQ or KQ here that he would almost certainly fold if you reraised all-in. If he has AK, AA, or KK, he's almost certain to call no matter what you do. QQ is also a highly like play no matter what.

However, he could have a lot of Ax and Ky type hands. While it doesn't kill you if they come in, you'd probably rather have them out at this point. As for SB, while he also could have a premium hand, he could just have a decent A, or any pair. As such, I'm happy to race him for T4000 each with T1600 of dead money from the button.

This is definitely fold or all-in in my mind, and I think all-in is the better choice.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[fnurt]

I raised all-in and button folded. SB had QQ so there went half my stack.

Obviously the button could have a real hand here, but if SB had folded, I 100% guarantee I would have gone all-in against the button. So I'm just not that worried about his hand. The real question is, what range of hands would the unknown SB play back at him with?

If I was in SB's position I think there are a lot of hands I would play back with (AT, 66, etc). I wonder if that's more aggressive than most people would play it, in which case, maybe I should have given him credit for more of a hand than I did.

I appreciate all the feedback and I guess I'm still riding the fence on this interesting situation.

[cferejohn]

Curse your luck and fold. There are a few hands SB could have that you decisively beat (TT, 99), but for the most part, you are either a slight favorite or a big dog. If SB has proven to be someone who will go all-in vs. a LP raise with any pair, call is more defensible, but still marginal. This is one of those situations where the lack of a person to read hurts.

Being able to lay-down JJ to a lot of pre-flop action makes you money, since there are many many tournament players who cannot do it.

[MaqEvil]

I had a situation almost identical to this last night, in the party $30 tourney. Blinds were 100/200 EP went all in with a ~1200 stack, folded to SB who raised all in (4k) and I (3k) folded my jacks in the BB.

EP had 88 and SB had AK. I would have scooped, but I still think that it's the right play.

[cferejohn]

Reminds me of another similar situation in a live NL tourney last night, though I think this was even a clearer fold. I'm in the cutoff with JJ. Folded to me. I raise 3x BB. Button goes all-in (has me significantly outchipped). BB also goes all-in (has very slightly less than me). I grumble to myself about bad luck and fold. Button has AK, BB wins it with KK. If it had only been the button coming over the top, I would have called and won (he had proved to be pretty aggressive vs. LP raisers).

I remembered thinking at the time "there might not be another person at this table who could lay this down". I could be dead wrong of course, but that's how I felt about it at the time.

[fnurt]

The difference between my situation and the situation with an EP raiser is that you need to be more concerned about the EP raiser having a hand than an open-raiser on the button. So there's 2 people who might have a better hand than JJ. Whether that changes the decision or not, I dunno.

As for the situation where TWO people go all-in after you raise with JJ, that sounds like an excellent laydown to me.

[cferejohn]

There was no EP raiser in my scenario, but your point that 2 people putting in all their chips after a raise is well taken.

I guess a way to think of it is to discount the initial LP raise, since it could be "anything". So in my hand, my raise could have been anything, so the re-raise says "I can beat most hands" while the second all-in says "I can beat everything or nearly everything (i.e. AA, KK *maybe* QQ).

In your situation, the button could have "anything" while the SB is saying "I can beat most hands". Given his chip position vs. the button, it sure looks like he's expecting a call (or at least that he is willing to live with one), so that bespeaks quite a strong hand. I'll agree that the JJ decision is closer here, but as JustaLoser said given the strength of your tournament play, I don't think you need to gamble here.

[boots]

depends on how much respect you have for the SB, and by that i mean the following:

if you think the SB is a MORE sophistcated player, you should reraise all in, or at least me more inclined to do so, as it is more likely he recognizes the opening raise as a steal attempt.

if you think the SB is a goombah --> fold, as he lacks the sophistication for such a play...

i understand that you didn't have much of a read on these players, so my analysis may be useless...

however, i think too many players think "i'm either a small favorite or a big dog" if i play my "Friday in Vegas" (that's the new official name for JJ - aka - a couple of hooks - friday in vegas /forums/images/icons/wink.gif ....herby christened by me). Such a mindset ignores the fact that your all in move can get players to lay down a lot of hands (maybe QQ, maybe A-Q), although if you are unfortunate enough to be up against AA or KK, them's the breaks /forums/images/icons/mad.gif ...get your money in as a 55-45 favorite against overcards, or as a bigger favorite against A-10 restealers in the SB and you will be in great chip position of your hand holds up.

[boots]

depends on how much respect you have for the SB, and by that i mean the following:

if you think the SB is a MORE sophistcated player, you should reraise all in, or at least me more inclined to do so, as it is more likely he recognizes the opening raise as a steal attempt.

if you think the SB is a goombah --> fold, as he lacks the sophistication for such a play...

i understand that you didn't have much of a read on these players, so my analysis may be useless...

however, i think too many players think "i'm either a small favorite or a big dog" if i play my "Friday in Vegas" (that's the new official name for JJ - aka - a couple of hooks - friday in vegas /forums/images/icons/wink.gif ....herby christened by me). Such a mindset ignores the fact that your all in move can get players to lay down a lot of hands (maybe QQ, maybe A-Q), although if you are unfortunate enough to be up against AA or KK, them's the breaks /forums/images/icons/mad.gif ...get your money in as a 55-45 favorite against overcards, or as a bigger favorite against A-10 restealers in the SB and you will be in great chip position of your hand holds up.

[fnurt]

I was responding to MaqEvil's and cferejohn's posts in a single reply, sorry for any confusion. /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

[Ignatius]

I'd tend to move in here. Since the button is in a steal position, the SB doesn't need a monster to defend (many pls. routinely move in with any pair in this spot) and your jacks should be a favorite over his possible range of hands. Note that if you can get the button to fold, you get 10:6 pot odds, so you would have to be pretty sure to be against an overpair to muck here.

[curtains]

Id go all in here. I mean if Im the SB in that spot with something like A9 or 77 and only 4000 in chips, im most likely going all in. It's hard to sit around and wait for huge hands with only 4000 in chips at this stage of the event, thus I think if one feels they are reasonably likely to be favored, they would put all their chips in here. The pity is that its very unlikely the button would fold for only 2400 more, thus meaning that if one raises from the SB here, it is almost a bluff. If the original raise was 1200 instead of 1600....then the SB can much easier believe that its possible for the button to release some hands after the allin raise. Despite this I think well over 50% (id say around 70-80%) of the time, the SB should not have QQ,KK or AA, unless they are too tight.

[Rickfish]

"if Im the SB in that spot with something like A9 or 77 and only 4000 in chips, im most likely going all in."

I think there is a flaw to that argument. The reason this person is sitting there with 4000 at this stage of the tournament is because he doesn't go all-in with A9 or 77. If he played like that he would probably have been knocked out a long time ago or be one of the lucky fish who have about 40,000 chips. That is unless he had just lost a big pot but that was not mentioned so I assume he is someone who waits for good cards.

[curtains]

Im confused, are you saying that reraising an obvious steal position raise from the SB with 77 or A9 is a bad play? Also it makes a lot more sense to reraise allin with a decent hand when the BB is 1/10th of your stack as opposed to 1/100th, as it is when the tournament starts.

Like if I have 2000 and the blinds are 25 -50 and I have 77 and the Button makes it 200 to go....ok then you dont have to get involved, but at this point things have changed and I think that folding 77 with 4000 in chips in the SB to a normal player in this spot is just wrong. Once again with 10k in chips, things become a lot murkier, but with 4000 and the blinds at 200-400 you cant just be throwing away hands like that to steal raises. Note that I dont recommend this play with any pair, because 77 there is quite a decent chance the guy has a lower pair or an ace with a 7 or lower kicker.

Also assuming someone's playing style just because of how many chips they have, doesn't make much sense. It sometimes makes sense when someone has a ridiculously large amount of chips, but I don't think you can peg how someone plays because they have an average or slightly below average amount of chips.

[Schmed]

shouldn't you reraise all in to push out the weak button, (as perceived), and get it heads up against the short stack. The button certainly folds to all that heat and takes the original posters mentality that it's better to live and fight another day.

[fnurt]

This is an interesting point. However I can tell you I would go all-in with A9 or 77 in that situation, and yet I did not have 0 or 40000 chips at this stage of the tournament... I had 8k or 9k or whatever I said in my original post. So I don't know how reliable this method of reading hands is!