Open letter to the forum

[TStoneMBD]

Twoplustwo is growing at a significant rate. The posters of Heads-up & Short-handed (HUSH) have requested for a very long time, the division of the forum. The HUSH posters have persistently proposed splitting the forum into a MidHighStakesHUSH (MH-HUSH) and a SmallStakesHUSH (SS-HUSH). Their proposals have gone unanswered. It is not fair to have 30/60 hands being posted alongside 1/2 hands in the same forum. I would like to see .5/1-5/10 being posted in the small stakes forum and 10/20 and up in the midhigh.

HUSH should be divided into 3 forums:

-MidHigh-Shorthanded (MHSH)
-SmallStakes-Shorthanded (SSSH)
-HeadsUp-Threehanded (HUT)

Twoplustwo has a lack of progression in the art of heads up play. HUSH was supposed to be a creation of a heads up forum but it developed into the 6-max forum. Heads up threads are not getting alot of attention because the forum is populated by players specifically interested in playing 6max. By creating a forum specifically for HU and 3 handed, it should promote the interest of our most prominent posters to take interest.


Next, twoplustwo needs to once again divide the limit forums. There is currently no good home for 10/20-20/40 full game threads. Because of the introduction of the Party 30/60, MidHigh now has more than enough 30/60+ players to populate the forum. 15/30-20/40 threads seem out of place and don't receive much attention. It is not really fair to have 15/30 threads being posted alongside 100/200 threads.

Likewise, it is out of place to be posting 15/30-20/40 threads in the small stakes forum. The quality of play there is not well developed and the population of 10/20-20/40 players do not read that forum which leads to only small stakes players replying to these threads.

Therefore, I propose the limit section of our forums be split into the following 4 forums:

-Micro Limit (ML)
-Small Stakes (SS)
-Middle Stakes (MS)
-High Stakes (HS)


Lastly, I would like to see the creation of a new breed of forum. We need a forum specifically for the creation of announcements and events. We have many "The Official.... Thread" type posts popping up but they do not have a specific home. Instead these threads get posted sporadically in NVG, General, B&M and sometimes Internet Gambling. Unless you keep tabs on all of those forums you are likely to miss an important announcement or event. It's also not fair to have big announcement threads in the General Texas Hold'em forum where most of the threads are bad beat threads and alike.

Therefore, I propose that we create a new forum called Announcements and Events. The Announcements and Events forum (AE) should have a moderator whos purpose is to maintain the quality of the forum by only allowing announcements and events posts and moving all other posts to their appropriate forums.

Threads that should reside in the Announcements and Events forum, but are not required to will be threads similar to the following:

The HULA threads, Magoofest, official releases of non-profit websites, official releases of software, information and updates regarding poker sites such as merges and software updates, conformist and emmitt222 type challenges.

In closing and summary, I would like to see the following forums divided and created:

MidHigh-Shorthanded (MHSH)
SmallStakes-Shorthanded (SSSH)
HeadsUp-Threehanded (HUT)
-
Micro Limit (ML)
Small Stakes (SS)
Middle Stakes (MS)
High Stakes (HS)
-
Announcements and Events (AE)


-TStoneMBD

[wacki]

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[BongRips]

While I do not know anything about the situation in regards to full table limit, I do agree with tstone that HUSH should be split and that an announcment forum would be extremely helpful, specifically during HULA season.

[Alobar]

I think this makes a lot of sense. Good post

As far as the HUSH split, I have an email from mat thats a couple months old saying he was down for it. Im not sure why it hasnt happened other than some software type situation, but really, how long can it take?

[Eurotrash]

good post, Tstone. hopefully these new forums will soon be created

[brazilio]

[ QUOTE ]
good post, Tstone. hopefully these new forums will soon be created

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe if you moved out of .02/.04 you could join in the fun

[SippinSoma]

I wholeheartedly agree.

[PITTM]

i agree with everything, but i think the shorthanded forums should be specific to 6max and made both in the limit and NL forums. in the nearly 2 years ive posted here, ive played 6max exclusively and its difficult to sort through 6m hands vs hu hands vs 4 handed hands. a separate 6max forum and hu forum is a good idea imo.

rj

[Victor]

surprisingly i agree completely.

[Danenania]

I agree with everything. The only part I'm not sure about is if the HUT would get enough activity. It can't hurt to give it a shot though. If it ends up as a ghost town then it can just be removed and HU/3-handed posts can be posted in the appropriate HUSH forums.

I also think it's fairly pathetic how long it's taken for anything to be done about the HUSH situation, even though in the past few months we've been told it would be done "in the next few days" more times than I can remember. Is it really so difficult?

[Lmn55d]

amen

[Rick Nebiolo]

Great post.

I think one reason I don't post as much as I once did in mid-high stakes limit holdem (other than the fact I'm concentrating on mastering other games) is I'm intimidated by the posts for much larger games. I've come to terms with the fact that I'm a mid limit grinder, and probably will remain so.

Perhaps the split could be mid to high limit holdem B&M and mid to high limit holdem online. Most of the higher limit game posts seem to be from online games, and some of us primarily B&M players don't like the posts that are the result of hand converter output (I know mike l. is one who also feels this way).

~ Rick

Good stuff

I also wouldn't mind seeing a middle stakes pot-limit and no-limit texas holdem forum, for 200NL and 400NL, maybe 100NL too

At the moment, 2NL and 400NL are in the same forum, but the games at both these stakes are completely different

[fnord_too]

good plan, i like it

[tek]

I would like to add that there should be a division of each forum for B&M and Internet players.

Never mind, Rick already said it.

[Kumubou]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with everything. The only part I'm not sure about is if the HUT would get enough activity. It can't hurt to give it a shot though. If it ends up as a ghost town then it can just be removed and HU/3-handed posts can be posted in the appropriate HUSH forums.

[/ QUOTE ]
Just because a forum is low traffic does not mean it should be wiped out. The Other Poker forum is a great example of that -- it's a high signal, low traffic board. Even though it gets very few posts a day, it still serves a very real purpose.

....

I can not believe I am in agreement with TStone here; something has to be wrong with my Internet. HUSH is almost unreadable at this point -- it needs to be split off if only for traffic management purposes.

-K

[Colonel Kataffy]

Great post. Especially this:

[ QUOTE ]
Twoplustwo has a lack of progression in the art of heads up play. HUSH was supposed to be a creation of a heads up forum but it developed into the 6-max forum. Heads up threads are not getting alot of attention because the forum is populated by players specifically interested in playing 6max. By creating a forum specifically for HU and 3 handed, it should promote the interest of our most prominent posters to take interest.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Klepton]

i agree.

[brick]

true dat.

[istewart]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
good post, Tstone. hopefully these new forums will soon be created

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe if you moved out of .02/.04 you could join in the fun

[/ QUOTE ]

ROFL

[Spook]

I am in complete agreement.

[slamdunkpro]

Agree

[Zygote]

got my vote. i stopped posting in HUSH some time ago, but this sounds like something that would draw me back.

[tizim]

agree 100%

[raisins]

Excellent post. I can't think of anything I disagree with.

raisins

[TheMetetron]

I've decided that I'm likening the split of HUSH to the release of Dr. Dre's Detox.

I think we have at least another 4 years to wait before it actually gets done, despite being told repeatedly it was "just around the corner".

[7ontheline]

Definitely agree. The HUSH split is most important but the other forum proposals are good too.

[MicroBob]

Terrific post TStone.

completely agree.


Couple other things that would go in the 'announcements' forum (along with HULA and magoo) would include KOTZ and Dr. Physic's weekly 2+2 tourneys.

since it's 'announcements and events' I think we might be able to move some of the MTT 'official $200k guaranteed' type of threads along with 'sweat' threads over there too.
Not sure if this is a good idea or not (since the MTT'ers might not find them).


A fine proposal for the HUSH split.

Just because there is not much discussion on HU strategy currently doesn't mean that we WOULDN'T have it IF we could actually make the space for it.
Any attempt to discuss it would get completely lost in the current HUSH environment.


Finally - not all of you are aware that Schneids specifically stated over in HUSH that if there was a mid-high short-handed forum he would post in there quite frequently.
I suspect that some other really strong SH players who haven't been posting as much lately (because of the difficulties of that forum) would also return.
but just the idea of Schneids posting more of his thoughts on short-handed play was enough for me, and several others, to say that we REALLY need to get this done.


Terrific post TStone. Well done.

[TheMetetron]

Also, I've decided I would post a lot more HU and 3-handed type hands if such a forum existed. I know I play a ton of it and it would be great to be able to discuss it somewhere (not happening in the current HUSH).

[ArturiusX]

Great post.

[Brock Landers]

Booyah

[tek]

Skidaddy

[josh1122]

Agreed.

[waffle]

signed. agree

[ClaytonN]

agree-ified

[DMBFan23]

THIS WILL BE LIKE EVERY OTHER EFFORT WHERE THEY ASSURE US THAT CHANGES ARE IN THE WORKS AND THEN NOTHING WILL HAPPEN. I agree with everything you said though Tstone, GREAT POST.

[dealer_toe]

[ QUOTE ]
Skidaddy

[/ QUOTE ]

and an excellent two plus two booyah right back at you

I agree.

[Surfbullet]

Great post MBD!

I agree wholeheartedly - it looks like you really gave this alot of thought. I'm going to post a link in the mod forum now.

Surf

[Eurotrash]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
good post, Tstone. hopefully these new forums will soon be created

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe if you moved out of .02/.04 you could join in the fun

[/ QUOTE ]

ROFL

[/ QUOTE ]


see, this isn't funny because it's not true.

[Drontier]

signed.

[ QUOTE ]
I am in complete agreement.

[/ QUOTE ]

[bobbyi]

When I started reading twoplustwo, we had separate forums for mid- and high-stakes. They were eventually merged due to lack of traffic in high-stakes. I agree that there is now enough high-stakes traffic to justify splitting them again. In fact, I really think this should happen. I would post much more on mid-stakes if it was it's own forum. However, I think the history of what happened to the original high-stakes forum is instructive. Since there was so much good discussion on the mid-stakes board, anyone who had a high-stakes hand would post it there instead so that it would actually get attention. This led to even less hands on the high-stakes forum and this became a cycle and high-stakes turned into a ghost town. This meant that people stopped reading the high-stakes forum, so whenever someone posted a hand there, someone would need to make a post on mid-stakes to say "hey, go check out this interesting hand posted on high-stakes". Essentially, there was so little high-stakes play that the high-stakes forum collapsed in on itself and was absorbed into mid-stakes.

If you create a separate HU/3-handed forum, this is exactly what will happen today. I agree philosophically that having one forum for full table games and another for HU through six-handed doesn't really make sense since HU and six-handed are very different, much more different than six-handed is from full ring (especially here on the West Coast where tables are nine-handed and there is always someone up from the table, so "full" games are a lot of seven- and eight-handed play). However, in practice it is clear that the demand for HU discussion just isn't there to support a whole forum. I wish it were as much as you do, but that isn't the case. Today, HU posts get no responses either in HUSH or in MHS. If people aren't interested in responding to those posts now, they certainly aren't going to become interested when you take those posts and put them in a separate forum where no one will even see them. The HU/3 forum will languish and people who have HU hands will post them in MUSH instead so that they actually get seen. If there ever is an interesting post on HU/3, someone will come along and start a new thread on MUSH saying "you guys should check out this HU/3 post", which defeats the point of having separate forums. Further, you say you don't like having .5/1 and 100/200 hands posted together on HUSH and this is exactly what would happen on a HU/3 fourm.

[TStoneMBD]

Hi Bobby, I understand your point of view that a HU/3handed forum might not gain much attention, but I don't believe that to be true. If there was a HU/3handed forum I would participate in it frequently, and if I would I assume many others would as well. We do get threads in HUSH that involve button raises against the SB and BB. These threads would be appropriate in the HU/3handed forum and there are enough of them now that I think they belong to a seperate home. HUSH really has become a 6max forum.

I also didn't know that midhighstakes was once 2 forums as you have been here longer than I have. However, just because the forums couldn't coexist during that time doesn't mean they won't now. They definitely will without question. There was a lack of traffic in high stakes back then as you say, but now there isn't. The only concern might be that there will be a lack of traffic for middle stakes, but I don't think that would happen. We have so many players who play between 10/20-20/40 and do not post their full ring hands, but only post shorthanded hands in the HUSH forum. There is no home for the 10/20-20/40 full ring players, I think we should make one.

[MelK]

I think the heads up / 3 handed forum is definitely needed. All discussion gets lost in the HUSH forum now. If it becomes a relatively inactive forum, thats fine by me, but its very existance will encourage more on topic posting.

[gabbahh]

This might actually be the first time we all agree on something.

[SlyGuy]

I will go with TStone here.

[MelK]

[ QUOTE ]
This might actually be the first time we all agree on something.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, good. I didn't know we were in constant disagreement all the time, or even when we have posted in the same thread. So I'll take your word for it.

Maybe we can post together in the new Heads Up forum. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[MarkL444]

glad to see everyone agreeing. tstone is clearly spot-on with what needs to be done to improve those forums. and it IS important.

[Chobohoya]

Great post, I hope that Mat Sklansky reads it and recognizes this fact as well.

[stigmata]

signed.

[Surfbullet]

[ QUOTE ]
Great post, I hope that Mat Sklansky reads it and recognizes this fact as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's checked it out and feedback has been favorable...we're going to get the mods of the relevant forums together for more discussion on monday and hopefully we'll proceed from there.

Surf

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Tstone:

We're beginning a long process to make everything around here much better. The first step is the update in software, which is still being worked on, that you have just seen.

The next step is a complete redesign of this site. We have already met with the redesign people and hope to begin this process shortly and be done in about six weeks.

After that, it will then be time to start looking at the type of suggestions that you are making. www.twoplustwo.com (http://www.twoplustwo.com) has grown at such a fast rate its been difficult to maintain it at a top level of efficiency. But we are aware of the problems and are trying to improve things.

Best wishes,
Mason

[TStoneMBD]

thanks mason, sounds good.

[Alex/Mugaaz]

We appreciate the effort Mason, but does it really need to take that long? You guys open up new forums fairly regularly. I think almost all the posters in these forums agree with these changes. Opening new forums doesn't require a re-design of website.

[tek]

We need an "I'm moving to Vegas" forum and a "Going Pro" forum, too /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[TheMetetron]

[ QUOTE ]
We appreciate the effort Mason, but does it really need to take that long? You guys open up new forums fairly regularly. I think almost all the posters in these forums agree with these changes. Opening new forums doesn't require a re-design of website.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, honestly, it takes 2 minutes to split HUSH. There is no need to wait 6 weeks to do. We all want it and it will make all of your posters happier.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Alex:

new forums are done at the click of a button. But whenever we open a new forum there is always the potential of damaging an old one. Right now we want to take things one step at a time, and the site redesign as the potential to impact everything.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Danenania]

Hey Mason. This seems like a good opportunity to create some of the new proposed forums as a trial. Put them up now and see how they fare, how much traffic they get, how they effect the various communities, then in 6 weeks you can take all the results into consideration when designing the new site. This would also make all the posters happy. Something to think about.

[partygirluk]

I'd like to see a "Vent, rant and rave" forum similar to that on internettaxsholdem.com - lots of people want to post bad beat stories, I'm running well stories, omg Mahatma just lost $100K stories, some people want to read them some hate them, having a forum designed for this problem seems like the solution.