Taking blinds

[Jason Strasser]

When I’m at my best people fold suspiciously. When I’m at my worst people play back with everything, or fold everything.

People cross over from being suspicious to being non-believers when they feel violated. They feel like you don’t respect them, or that little blind in front of them. You need to take their blind, but take it honestly. Well, they need to think you’re honest, or close enough. Even the hardest rock can sometimes creep out of its shell when you play with his balls.

There are of course, times to ravage blinds, but when that time comes you need to do it so fast they don’t quite realize your violating them. And the second they realize what’s going on, you sure as hell better hit the deck or be prepared to fold, or back off. I play herky-jerky sometimes, but that’s because I’m not very good. I put the pedal down to fast, and slam on the breaks too hard and at the wrong times. But its ok, I'm just 20 and I grew up in NYC where you don't need a driverse license.

The best, in my humble opinion, smoothly creep about in the realm of keeping all their opponents ever slightly suspicious. They might be able to pick bet amounts that look more threatening (this does not mean bigger or smaller) to induce action when they want it, and also to raise amounts that look friendly when the want folds. They might also use charisma and charm at the table towards this mean.

It helps to just be that nice guy. Take off your Partypoker visor before you sit!

-Jason

[Indiana]

I've stopped going after the blinds so heavily, and I'm going much deeper into tournies and cashing a lot more often.

But that's just me,

Indy

[jcm4ccc]

I nominate this post for the highest percentage of mixed metaphors ever. Poker is compared to:

Rape: "There are of course, times to ravage blinds"

Boating: "You sure as hell better hit the deck"

Driving: "I put the pedal down too fast, and slam on the breaks too hard and at the wrong times. But its ok, I'm just 20 and I grew up in NYC where you don't need a driverse license."

But that's nothing compared to this classic: "Even the hardest rock can sometimes creep out of its shell when you play with his balls." Which has 3 metaphors, and is a difficult image to get out of your mind, once you actually think about it.

--Joe
Down the road in Raleigh.

[gobboboy]

I have found the best way to take the blinds without looking like you're taking the blinds is opting to raise in MP with suited connectors and be prepared to play postflop.

You'd be surprised how much less you get played back at, and if you DO get played back at, you can lay down your hands because you know they have a hand. It's all in moderation though. Be sure to show your good hands if they think you're stealing too much.

[Chief911]

Jason,

Have you been hanging out with Tommy Angelo?

Great post.

Nick

[EverettKings]

[ QUOTE ]
I nominate this post for the highest percentage of mixed metaphors ever. Poker is compared to:

Rape: "There are of course, times to ravage blinds"

Boating: "You sure as hell better hit the deck"

Driving: "I put the pedal down too fast, and slam on the breaks too hard and at the wrong times. But its ok, I'm just 20 and I grew up in NYC where you don't need a driverse license."

But that's nothing compared to this classic: "Even the hardest rock can sometimes creep out of its shell when you play with his balls." Which has 3 metaphors, and is a difficult image to get out of your mind, once you actually think about it.

--Joe
Down the road in Raleigh.

[/ QUOTE ]

NI HAN SIR /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[EverettKings]

[ QUOTE ]
When I’m at my best people fold suspiciously. When I’m at my worst people play back with everything, or fold everything.

[/ QUOTE ]

It also is the case that when they fold suspiciously, you feel like you're playing well, and when they play back, you feel like you suck. Regardless of how you're actually playing.



As for your point, the main thing is to not single someone out. What I mean by that is, if a person feels like you're threatening THEIR blind, like it's you vs them, then they get an extra dose of guts and you don't know what can happen.

However, if you're in pedal-to-the-metal mode, but raising from most all positions to nominal (2.5-3x) amounts, maybe 2 out of 5 hands or so, then noone in particular feels violated and if someone speaks up its likely because they have a hand. Even if people know you're raising too much, they don't feel PERSONALLY responsible to stick up to you. But if you raise EVERY time it's folded to you in LP and make it 3x, youre asking for a fight.

Choosing the correct stacks to steal from is also underrated. Often times I look at my position and the stacks and decide to raise before I process my cards. You have to be careful of short stacks whose pushes you'll have to call (i.e. 9-10x stacks that are likely to push over you with a decent range and you're in a nauseating spot when they do), and decent stacks in position that will make you work for the pot. 5x type stacks are also great to steal from when they're not closing the action, since they're obv waiting for a hand and when you open to 3x they know it's do or die (and it's not a big deal to call their push if you have to).

Just some thoughts.

Everett

[Benal]

[ QUOTE ]
Be sure to show your good hands if they think you're stealing too much.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with this for various reasons.

[ansky451]

[ QUOTE ]
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Be sure to show your good hands if they think you're stealing too much.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with this for various reasons.

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Usually a statement like that... is followed by reasons.

[Benal]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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Be sure to show your good hands if they think you're stealing too much.

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I disagree with this for various reasons.

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Usually a statement like that... is followed by reasons.

[/ QUOTE ]

OKOK, here are a couple..

1- Never show your hand if you don't have to.

2- Whenever someone steals a lot and then shows a strong hand when everyone folds, it makes subsequent steals less credible. IMO, they're doing the exact opposite of what they're trying to accomplish.

In my experience (at buy-ins <= $22), a tight player's a tight player and a loose player's a loose player. The only time I find this to change is HU. I very rarely get sheriffed by a tight player.

[Exitonly]

[ QUOTE ]
2- Whenever someone steals a lot and then shows a strong hand when everyone folds, it makes subsequent steals less credible. IMO, they're doing the exact opposite of what they're trying to accomplish.

[/ QUOTE ]


Er.. i think the obvious effects, are actually true. If you show [censored] hands after pushing/stealing, i think you get called more often, and if you show premium hands, i think you'll get more respect. I dont think people get into deeper levels of thinking than that.

Though, the effect is so tiny, andnot prove-aable at all, but that's what i 'feel' is right.

[jcm4ccc]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
2- Whenever someone steals a lot and then shows a strong hand when everyone folds, it makes subsequent steals less credible. IMO, they're doing the exact opposite of what they're trying to accomplish.

[/ QUOTE ]


Er.. i think the obvious effects, are actually true. If you show [censored] hands after pushing/stealing, i think you get called more often, and if you show premium hands, i think you'll get more respect. I dont think people get into deeper levels of thinking than that.

Though, the effect is so tiny, andnot prove-aable at all, but that's what i 'feel' is right.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. I think it's completely psychological. Everybody knows you are stealing, and they are thinking about when they are going to call you down. Then you show those pocket Kings, and they think, oh [censored], I'm glad I didn't call you down on that hand.

So it doesn't fool anybody when you show your premium hands. But it gives them pause, and maybe buys you another free ride or two.

[Benal]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
2- Whenever someone steals a lot and then shows a strong hand when everyone folds, it makes subsequent steals less credible. IMO, they're doing the exact opposite of what they're trying to accomplish.

[/ QUOTE ]


Er.. i think the obvious effects, are actually true. If you show [censored] hands after pushing/stealing, i think you get called more often, and if you show premium hands, i think you'll get more respect. I dont think people get into deeper levels of thinking than that.

Though, the effect is so tiny, andnot prove-aable at all, but that's what i 'feel' is right.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess we view this differently. If someone shows trash after stealing/pushing, I tend to believe them the next time they do it.

[KingDan]

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So it doesn't fool anybody when you show your premium hands. But it gives them pause, and maybe buys you another free ride or two.

[/ QUOTE ]

On a similae note, I always show when I get a big hand and a walk in the big blind. It might make it slightly more likely that someone messes with your blind.

When I show a big hand in a spot like this, it is because I want it to be in the back of their minds every time: "He's probably stealing, but what if this is the time he's got Aces? I know he'll play them like this. Better let somebody else stand up to him."

Seeing your good hand also lets the player who folded his blind reward himself psychologically: "Good fold, hoss, you're doin' fine. Got a nice stack, just don't do anything stupid." If he's doing what you want him to do (folding), and he's proud of himself for doing it, then you're doing something right.

[ QUOTE ]
When I show a big hand in a spot like this, it is because I want it to be in the back of their minds every time: "He's probably stealing, but what if this is the time he's got Aces? I know he'll play them like this. Better let somebody else stand up to him."

Seeing your good hand also lets the player who folded his blind reward himself psychologically: "Good fold, hoss, you're doin' fine. Got a nice stack, just don't do anything stupid." If he's doing what you want him to do (folding), and he's proud of himself for doing it, then you're doing something right.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed.

my strategy comprises of a give now, take later method to develop trust.. ie. if guy is on my left for a while, I'll give him some blinds when it's folded around, indicating I have discretion in what I call/raise with.. this will occur when at the current time, 200 in blinds or whatever is not a big deal to me.. but this is a good setup for a steal when either 1.) Blinds are bigger in relation to my stack and 2.) Taking the blind can separate me more from either the bubble or the other people on my table.

[Jason Strasser]

no but he's a cool dude i gather

[Yuv]

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no but he's a cool dude i gather

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Not that it matters much, but I really enjoy your posts. Keep 'em coming.

[FishInAPhoneBooth]

[ QUOTE ]
I've stopped going after the blinds so heavily, and I'm going much deeper into tournies and cashing a lot more often.

But that's just me,

Indy

[/ QUOTE ]

I really though I was the only one to experience this.

I've lost tournaments on being stubborn out of the SB and BB, for something that started out so small, turned into a 'who's gonna back off first' type battle.. then I get pot commited with like 2-7.

[ajmargarine]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've stopped going after the blinds so heavily, and I'm going much deeper into tournies and cashing a lot more often.

But that's just me,

Indy

[/ QUOTE ]

I really though I was the only one to experience this.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've slowed down in that area also. Also slowed down in BB defense against 2xBB PFR's with marginal hands. Calling because I have odds and catching a small piece of the flop was putting dents in my stack too often.

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I guess we view this differently. If someone shows trash after stealing/pushing, I tend to believe them the next time they do it.

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I think a poor player that shows his crap will continue to bet/raise with crap, because he doesn't understand the concept of setting someone up. I've seen this thing again and again. If it's a good player it really could go either way.

[ QUOTE ]
I think a poor player that shows his crap will continue to bet/raise with crap, because he doesn't understand the concept of setting someone up. I've seen this thing again and again. If it's a good player it really could go either way.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a very good point. Poor players show steals because they are proud of themselves and want to rub it in your face. They think they are hot [censored] and will likely continue to try to pull off spectacular steals, because that's what they think good poker is.

[Jason Strasser]

Slowing down protecting blinds and stealing blinds may have you lasting longer in some tournaments. However, it's probably more of a reflection of a person's post flop skills if they are having trouble raising with crappy hands, and not at all an indication that you should stop stealing blinds or defending with marginal hands when you should be. Who cares about lasting longer in tournaments anyawy?

-Jason