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Skuzzy
11-03-2005, 05:38 AM
Still trying to get a 'feel' for value betting situations in limit play. Anyway these two hands were played in the same orbit. On the first hand I value bet 2nd pair on the river against a weak calling station type who just refuses to fold on the end even with nothing but Jack high. On the second I choose to check behind against a similar opponent mostly because the board made a 1 card str8 possible. Is this OK? My hand was stronger in the 2nd example but my feeling was the threat of a raise (even a bluff raise) was greater.

Hand 1:

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>.

Flop: (5.33 SB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP3 checks.

Turn: (2.66 BB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP3 checks.

River: (2.66 BB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP3 calls.

Final Pot: 4.66 BB


Hand 2:


Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is CO with T/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB checks.

Flop: (3.33 SB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, MP1 folds.

Turn: (2.66 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

River: (4.66 BB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 4.66 BB
cold_cash
11-03-2005, 05:48 AM
In hand 1 if the guy is as bad as you say I would say bet the turn also, unless he's so passive you're planning a check/fold. (If you're going to check/fold, check; if you're going to check/call, bet.)

You're not getting bluff raised by this opponent if your read is right, but he's likely to call with plenty of worse hands. Bet and fold, I say. (I'm also not a big fan of this limp.)
Skuzzy
11-03-2005, 06:03 AM
[ QUOTE ]
(I'm also not a big fan of this limp.)

[/ QUOTE ] advocating instead .........?

I dont think I'll be betting Ace high with any confidence even with gut shot outs. Why is this a good play here?

I agree on hand 2, I'd just been outdrawn by a 2 outer in the previous hand so I think i was reacting a little to that here too.
Aaron_
11-03-2005, 06:21 AM
Comments on hand 1: In small pots, I rarely try anything funny against weak and passive opponents. It's probably not worth the bet if you get called down UI.

Easy bet on the river given your read in hand 2
11-03-2005, 06:56 AM
Hand 1: I always make the continuation bet here heads up. It's likely you still have the best hand, and every bet that goes in is still for value. There's no point in giving free cards to outdraw you. In a more aggressive game, you're opening yourself up to being pushed off of the best hand.

Hand 2: Preflop doesn't matter too much, but I prefer to raise to isolate the limper and for increased fold equity. The way it played out, definitely value bet the river. Given the board on the flop, and the turn call, it's more likely you're being called down by a weak T or 8 that'll pay off one more bet at showdown. It's also pretty unlikely you'll be CR-bluffed given the description of the villain.
11-03-2005, 07:53 AM
Hand 1--I dont like the check on the flop.
Hand 2--I would have bet the river. Hey skuzzy, this is a good hand where you could put Hero??? on the river. Next time do that, I know I have problems with these kind of hands.
Webster
11-03-2005, 08:14 AM
Hand #1 I betting the flop, turn AND river. He is also on a drawing hand and if he does not come back at you, BAM!

Hand #2 I'm raising the flop, all you have is one limper.

On the flop you have the a real good hand - better to hit the T then the Q actually - you can still improve AND havethe best hand already.

Check the river???? bad boy!
Stealthy
11-03-2005, 08:38 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Hand #1 I betting the flop, turn AND river. He is also on a drawing hand and if he does not come back at you, BAM!

Hand #2 I'm raising the flop, all you have is one limper.

On the flop you have the a real good hand - better to hit the T then the Q actually - you can still improve AND havethe best hand already.

Check the river???? bad boy!

[/ QUOTE ]

What he said.
@bsolute_luck
11-03-2005, 10:59 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Hand #2 I'm raising the preflop, all you have is one limper

[/ QUOTE ]

i think that's what you meant and if not, it should be done anyways.
car ramrod
11-03-2005, 11:53 AM
hand 2 bet that river. Don't limp with that hand pf, a raise is better.

hand 1 I would lead the flop.
PJM1206
11-03-2005, 12:07 PM
Are you raising because you think those are good cards to raise with OR is it mostly because you have position? Only one limper in front? or both? would you raise with 2 or 3 limpers?
PJM1206
11-03-2005, 12:09 PM
Woops

hand 1: I lead out betting flop turn and river

hand two I do the same thing lead out on flop turn and river
car ramrod
11-03-2005, 12:31 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Are you raising because you think those are good cards to raise with OR is it mostly because you have position? Only one limper in front? or both? would you raise with 2 or 3 limpers?


[/ QUOTE ]

I think that hand will hit a lot of flops. I think that the limper is probably weak, so I want to isolate him and get the blinds to fold. And yes b/c we have great position.
11-03-2005, 01:01 PM
Hand 1: is good, but you could have made another value bet on the turn, as well as the river.

Hand 2: If BB is not tricky, go ahead and bet this river. Would you fold to a raise?
Pedigree
11-03-2005, 01:01 PM
I play both hands the exact same except I bet the river in the second.
cold_cash
11-03-2005, 02:11 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I play both hands the exact same except I bet the river in the second.

[/ QUOTE ]

Checking the flop in the first hand is bad you guys. You have the best hand a TON of the time, and the other dude can't fold if you don't bet.

I didn't notice it in my first post; I thought Hero bet the flop and then gave up on the turn.
11-03-2005, 03:12 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I play both hands the exact same except I bet the river in the second.

[/ QUOTE ]

Checking the flop in the first hand is bad you guys. You have the best hand a TON of the time, and the other dude can't fold if you don't bet.

I didn't notice it in my first post; I thought Hero bet the flop and then gave up on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I also missed the value bet on the flop in hand 1. Second pair is often good HU.
11-03-2005, 03:22 PM
grunch

hand 1: given your read i think this is perfect
against most players i think you need to continuation bet tho

hand 2: bet the river. nothing in this hand could possibly indicate he holds a 7. you should be a thousand times more scared of a hand like KT being played passively (although its still an easy value bet)
KaiShin
11-03-2005, 03:31 PM
Hand 1: [ QUOTE ]
On the first hand I value bet 2nd pair on the river against a weak calling station type who just refuses to fold on the end even with nothing but Jack high.

[/ QUOTE ] (emphasis added)
So, why did you check the flop and the turn? Bet it. If you don't hit anything by the river, you can check/call.

Hand 2: Raise preflop. You've got excellent position with a decent hand and only one limper. Bet the river.