weird hand

[yvesaint]

400 max, 4-handed, Stars. Second orbit, but I've been playing very aggressive, taking down probably 5 of the last 8 pots. Stack sizes:

Button/Hero: 500
SB: 120
BB: 550
UTG: 700

UTG limps, I raise to 20 with T7s. Everyone calls.

Flop (80): Jd 7d 7

check, check, bet of 60, I ???

Bettor seems sort of loose-passive, but then again, only 2 orbits. What's your move here?

[Malachii]

Make it 200

[gunslingner]

This bet screams of Jacks up.

I would just call, you have a great chance to stack him if a non-diamond falls on the turn. Also you can get a call from the blinds...

[yvesaint]

See, this is exactly what I was thinking. There's a good chance SB pushes with 88-99, any overpair, any J, any overcards w/flush draw. And coincidentally, such a push is just enough for me to able to re-raise on top if necessary.

[Ghazban]

Why is this weird?

[gulebjorn]

If you've taken down so many pots and have been agressive, I'd say this is a good time to change gears and tighten up. I wouldn't raise with this hand PF. Some of these guys are probably waiting to trap you or come over the top, and this hand can't take much heat. It would be different if you were opening the betting.

Anyway, I agree with making it $200.

[ QUOTE ]
If you've taken down so many pots and have been agressive, I'd say this is a good time to change gears and tighten up. I wouldn't raise with this hand PF. Some of these guys are probably waiting to trap you or come over the top, and this hand can't take much heat. It would be different if you were opening the betting.

[/ QUOTE ]

Disagree. 4-handed, if you've been successfully taking down most pots, this bet works fine. Also, I like a mere call here to see how villain behaves on the turn. A bet of 200 gives him too much information. You'd be better off calling, then he has no idea where he's at and it makes it tough for him to play correctly.

[gulebjorn]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you've taken down so many pots and have been agressive, I'd say this is a good time to change gears and tighten up. I wouldn't raise with this hand PF. Some of these guys are probably waiting to trap you or come over the top, and this hand can't take much heat. It would be different if you were opening the betting.

[/ QUOTE ]

Disagree. 4-handed, if you've been successfully taking down most pots, this bet works fine. Also, I like a mere call here to see how villain behaves on the turn. A bet of 200 gives him too much information. You'd be better off calling, then he has no idea where he's at and it makes it tough for him to play correctly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh, misread and thought he was holding the J. Nevermind the raise. I'd probably just fold this.

Raise pot. If he's on the J, he folds. Overpair folds. 7 and kicker calls or pushes.

[swolfe]

[ QUOTE ]
Raise pot. If he's on the J, he folds. Overpair folds. 7 and kicker calls or pushes.

[/ QUOTE ]

so you're raise will fold out worse hands and be called by better. since that's the opposite of what you want to have happen, it seems like there's no reason to make that raise.

[Godfather80]

[ QUOTE ]
Raise pot. If he's on the J, he folds. Overpair folds. 7 and kicker calls or pushes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why are you trying to make worse hands fold and better hands call? Or was this post sarcastic? OP wants to make money here.

[Godfather80]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raise pot. If he's on the J, he folds. Overpair folds. 7 and kicker calls or pushes.

[/ QUOTE ]

so you're raise will fold out worse hands and be called by better. since that's the opposite of what you want to have happen, it seems like there's no reason to make that raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Damn. Beat me to it.

I see it as raising for information. If you just call, you still dont know squat.

[mosuavea]

[ QUOTE ]
I see it as raising for information.

[/ QUOTE ]

The most over valued term in poker

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raise pot. If he's on the J, he folds. Overpair folds. 7 and kicker calls or pushes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why are you trying to make worse hands fold and better hands call? Or was this post sarcastic? OP wants to make money here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am trying to get information. I have trips but a marginal kicker and I have NO clue what my opponent has. I cant make money if I am beat already.

[ QUOTE ]
The most over valued term in poker

[/ QUOTE ]

And yet still pretty important.

[scrapperdog]

Post deleted by scrapperdog

[Godfather80]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raise pot. If he's on the J, he folds. Overpair folds. 7 and kicker calls or pushes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why are you trying to make worse hands fold and better hands call? Or was this post sarcastic? OP wants to make money here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am trying to get information. I have trips but a marginal kicker and I have NO clue what my opponent has. I cant make money if I am beat already.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right, but you're plan loses you money when you're beat and loses you money when you're ahead. You are costing yourself future bets from weaker hands which are in Villain's hand range.

Or, perhaps we should simply fold here to avoid a confrontation with the other 7-better kicker villain must hold. As you laugh and say that this plan makes no sense, consider how close it is to your own.

[mosuavea]

[ QUOTE ]
Flat call. I am never a big fan of slow play but jeez u flopped a boat, you dont want him to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree with the flat call but OP doesn;t have a boat

[scrapperdog]

Too early in the morning stil on my first cup of coffee, I make mistakes like this for at least an hour.
Now that I see the hand correctly I re-raise.

[mosuavea]

[ QUOTE ]
Too early in the morning stil on my first cup of coffee, I make mistakes like this for at least an hour.

[/ QUOTE ]

Know how that goes /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[josie_wales]

Are you saying that if you raise "for information" you will fold to any bet that comes back your way with the stack sizes as they are?

[PinkSteel]

[ QUOTE ]
I would just call, you have a great chance to stack him if a non-diamond falls on the turn. Also you can get a call from the blinds...

[/ QUOTE ]

If I were your opponent, regardless of my hand -- draw, J, or 7 -- having you flat call is what I would most hate for you to do. So that's what I'd do.

[Ghazban]

Lots of people want to call here but I prefer raising due to the people still to act. I don't want to give somebody a good price to overcall on a diamond draw.

[ QUOTE ]
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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raise pot. If he's on the J, he folds. Overpair folds. 7 and kicker calls or pushes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why are you trying to make worse hands fold and better hands call? Or was this post sarcastic? OP wants to make money here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am trying to get information. I have trips but a marginal kicker and I have NO clue what my opponent has. I cant make money if I am beat already.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right, but you're plan loses you money when you're beat and loses you money when you're ahead. You are costing yourself future bets from weaker hands which are in Villain's hand range.

Or, perhaps we should simply fold here to avoid a confrontation with the other 7-better kicker villain must hold. As you laugh and say that this plan makes no sense, consider how close it is to your own.

[/ QUOTE ]

God, I hate it when I get smacked around like this. I hate it even worse when you're right. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Godfather80]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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[ QUOTE ]
Raise pot. If he's on the J, he folds. Overpair folds. 7 and kicker calls or pushes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why are you trying to make worse hands fold and better hands call? Or was this post sarcastic? OP wants to make money here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am trying to get information. I have trips but a marginal kicker and I have NO clue what my opponent has. I cant make money if I am beat already.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right, but you're plan loses you money when you're beat and loses you money when you're ahead. You are costing yourself future bets from weaker hands which are in Villain's hand range.

Or, perhaps we should simply fold here to avoid a confrontation with the other 7-better kicker villain must hold. As you laugh and say that this plan makes no sense, consider how close it is to your own.

[/ QUOTE ]

God, I hate it when I get smacked around like this. I hate it even worse when you're right. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't worry, other very good players agree with you, just for different reasons. Typically for me, however, every time I take a stand on a hand, I end up alone and shivering on Idiot Island.

[ QUOTE ]
Don't worry, other very good players agree with you, just for different reasons. Typically for me, however, every time I take a stand on a hand, I end up alone and shivering on Idiot Island.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know the feeling. Happens to me a ton. But like I like to say - I dont mind being wrong, as long as someone will explain to me why - preferably using little words.

[Hattifnatt]

I make it 220 right away.

[amoeba]

do what you do with nut flush draw/ 89d.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The most over valued term in poker

[/ QUOTE ]

And yet still pretty important.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you get more information out of calling and seeing how villain reacts on the turn

[Ghazban]

It is very troubling to me that I am the only person who even acknowledged that this pot was not being contested HU.

If you flat call here, a /images/graemlins/diamond.gif draw is getting perfect pot odds to call. What do you do when the turn is a /images/graemlins/diamond.gif? I raise to $200, and because you have been bullying everyone along, a decent jack (villain's most likely hands) are probably going to at least see a turn card.

If the person yet to act has a flush draw, he might push, because there are two people who might just call. I don't know if I would fold to a re-raise all-in by either player. If the yet to act cold calls, then villain's hand range also has to include /images/graemlins/diamond.gif/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

[swolfe]

[ QUOTE ]
It is very troubling to me that I am the only person who even acknowledged that this pot was not being contested HU.

[/ QUOTE ]

i was arguing against the logic of trying to fold out worse hands. i'd bump it to $180.

[wiggs73]

I kind of like a call so that you can represent a flush draw. This is, of course, assuming that you don't get calls from behind which are representing (and could well be) the same thing. If you think the other 2 players are likely to drop, then I think a call is good. If not, then I'd raise. But here's why I like repping a flush draw...

If villain has a strong jack and a non-flush card comes, he probably pots it on the turn. Now's when you can jam it with what is probably the best hand. There's only 1 more 7 in the deck and I just wouldn't be too worried about being out-kicked here. If a flush card comes, then it probably puts him on the defensive and you win the pot any way and might even get him to fold a better 7 if he does have it.

I definitely don't think raising is a bad option, but I kind of like making a stand on the turn, rather than the flop on this particular hand.

[Malachii]

[ QUOTE ]
Lots of people want to call here but I prefer raising due to the people still to act. I don't want to give somebody a good price to overcall on a diamond draw.

[/ QUOTE ] Right, and given how aggro Hero has been playing I think a raise here also might get somebody to overplay their hand against him.

[Benholio]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Lots of people want to call here but I prefer raising due to the people still to act. I don't want to give somebody a good price to overcall on a diamond draw.

[/ QUOTE ] Right, and given how aggro Hero has been playing I think a raise here also might get somebody to overplay their hand against him.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the first thing I thought when I read this thread, and I think its been overlooked. Your recent aggressive play will disguise the strength of your hand when you raise here. You will get good value from top pair and pocket pair type hands because of that.

Its kind of like the 40/30 player who limps in AA/KK to disguise his hand when it would already be disguised if he just raised it like always.

[Big_Jim]

You should read this.

Raising For Information (http://www.twoplustwo.com/magazine/current/ives1005.html)

[Big_Jim]

[ QUOTE ]
If I were your opponent, regardless of my hand -- draw, J, or 7 -- having you flat call is what I would most hate for you to do. So that's what I'd do.


[/ QUOTE ]

If you had a draw, isn't raising what you would most hate for him to do?

[Big_Jim]

[ QUOTE ]
I have trips but a marginal kicker

[/ QUOTE ]

No you don't. You have trips with a damn good kicker.

A7s is possible.... but K7, Q7, J7 are very unlikely, bordering on impossible if offsuit.

Furthermore 97s, 87, 67, and even 57s are MUCH more likely hands.