JJ

[PokerBob]

Canterbury 30/60 9 handed
This hand happened during the Fall Poker Classic a few weeks ago. Villian here is apparently a 2+2er from out of town. He is in the middle of a conversation with bicyclekick, who went up and introduced himself. I am not sure if BK has told him who I am, but I would love to know as it may have some bearing on how I should play this hand. Villain has been playing very tight (or has been card dead), as I have seen him involved in very few pots up to this point. I have been playing and running well at this point, which villain may or may not have noticed.

I open J /images/graemlins/heart.gifJ /images/graemlins/club.gif in UTG +1, folds to villain in the hijack who makes it 3-bets, blinds get lost and I call.

flop HU: 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

what is my plan the rest of the way here? also, anyone go 4 bets preflop?

[flawless_victory]

checkraise/4bet the flop... call down if you get more action.

[La Brujita]

I reraise preflop and lead. Here I check raise the flop.

I would take the HPFAP line and check and call all the way unless you improve. You raised from early postion and a solid tight player just reraised you. At this point he is likely to have a higher pair and thus youre cripped or two big cards and your barely ahead. This is not a sitaution where you would want to bombard the flop with chips. I see no reason to get aggressive at any point in this hand unless a jack hits. I also wouldve just called preflop as you did, and against other looser raisers I wouldve reraised preflop and lead the flop.

[DpR]

Seems silly not to AT LEAST lead the flop.

[ QUOTE ]
Seems silly not to AT LEAST lead the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sometimes passive play makes more money in the long run than showing aggression, I think this is one of those cases.

[jba]

[ QUOTE ]
At this point he is likely to have a higher pair and thus youre cripped or two big cards and your barely ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]

3-1 favorite is barely ahead? and if you take away the river card (ie he folds turn UI) you are a huge favorite.

I like c/r the flop.

Someone please explain to me why the HPFAP line does not apply to this situation? To me this situation exacly mirrors the book example, which says to check and call every street.

[jba]

[ QUOTE ]
Someone please explain to me why the HPFAP line does not apply to this situation? To me this situation exacly mirrors the book example, which says to check and call every street.

[/ QUOTE ]

specifically with JJ? I don't remember this part.

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
checkraise/4bet the flop... call down if you get more action.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, this is fine, i think you can alternatively just call the 3bet. im most worried about him tkaing a free card if i use htis line though.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Someone please explain to me why the HPFAP line does not apply to this situation? To me this situation exacly mirrors the book example, which says to check and call every street.

[/ QUOTE ]

specifically with JJ? I don't remember this part.

[/ QUOTE ]
Page 133. "Playing good hands when it is three bets before the flop" Sklansky's example hand is QQ but also applies to any lower pair.

[tongni]

I checkraise the flop and call down a 3bet, I think if you go 4bets on the flop then you'd probably have to find a fold to more action.

[Schneids]

If you put in more than 4BBs postflop than you've definitely lost the hand. So, aim for that as your max. I think 3-4 is ideal.

[BoxTree]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Someone please explain to me why the HPFAP line does not apply to this situation? To me this situation exacly mirrors the book example, which says to check and call every street.

[/ QUOTE ]

specifically with JJ? I don't remember this part.

[/ QUOTE ]
Page 133. "Playing good hands when it is three bets before the flop" Sklansky's example hand is QQ but also applies to any lower pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

Possibilities:

1) This hand is not similar enough to the hand on page 133.

2) Sklansky is wrong.

3) Everyone here is wrong.

I'm gonna go with option #1, and I'd pick #2 before I went with #3. As for HOW this hand is fundamentally different than the one on page 133, I'm not really sure.

Against excellent opponents, I play QQ the same as I play JJ here: check/call, check/call, bet.

But I'd like to hear why people don't think that Sklansky's line is appropriate in this situation.

[PokerBob]

Canterbury 30/60 9 handed
This hand happened during the Fall Poker Classic a few weeks ago. Villian here is apparently a 2+2er from out of town. He is in the middle of a conversation with bicyclekick, who went up and introduced himself. I am not sure if BK has told him who I am, but I would love to know as it may have some bearing on how I should play this hand. Villain has been playing very tight (or has been card dead), as I have seen him involved in very few pots up to this point. I have been playing and running well at this point, which villain may or may not have noticed.

I open J /images/graemlins/heart.gifJ /images/graemlins/club.gif in UTG +1, folds to villain in the hijack who makes it 3-bets, blinds get lost and I call.

flop HU: 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

I checked and called.

turn: X

I checked and called.

river: Y
I checked and he checked. MHIG.

I like what Schneids said about not putting in more than 3-4BB in this hand. I did not want to give this guy (who i assumed was good/tricky based on the fact he was a 2+2er) a chance to outplay me. If I c/r the flop, would he 3-bet me with overs and put me in a bad spot? Maybe. If I c/r'ed the turn, would he fold a hand like AK-AQ? Would he call the turn c/r and then pop the river with a hand like AA-QQ? I dunno either, but I did not want to find out. I think I should have bet the river and folded to a raise. BK says I should have checked the river and let him bet it. I dunno.

Preflop I think is kinda close. If I make it 4 bets, he may very well back off with a hand like QQ or even KK given my image and position. If I am ahead of him preflop, it is likely not by very much. Maybe he is 3-betting me here with a hand like 66-99, but i doubt it. TT, sure, but that's about it IMHO. Maybe I am too weak. meh.

[ALL1N]

Call and CR most turn cards is my preference.

[ggbman]

Given you line preflop, i would like to c/r this flop. If he 3 bets, bet/call the turn and check/call the river. This would be my action against a solid unknown player. If you know for a fact that he doesnt 3 bet 99 or TT here, you obviously want to put in less bets. All of that said, 1.5 BB going in here postflop is not enough IMO.

Gabe

[worm33]

I would check call the flop and donk any turn, including an ace...If he raises the turn prolly call down, maybe fold river.

[worm33]

I dont think 66-88 is 3 betting range here. I think range is pretty narrow here. Ak and Aq only unpaired hands who 3 bet and 9's and up. Basicly any players range when a solid player open raises utg+1

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
Given you line preflop, i would like to c/r this flop. If he 3 bets, bet/call the turn and check/call the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can see the flop c/r and i suppose donking the turn to keep him from getting a freebie (assuming he 3-bets the flop), but bet/calling the turn here seems like a spew. Is he raising the turn here with a hand i beat? I kinda doubt it.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
I would check call the flop and donk any turn, including an ace...If he raises the turn prolly call down, maybe fold river.

[/ QUOTE ]

If we are ahead here, don't we get more value by c/ring the flop?

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont think 66-88 is 3 betting range here. I think range is pretty narrow here.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't/didn't either, but some redheaded kid who shall remain nameless called me a skirt for the way i played the hand. When i said, "what does he 3-bet me with that i am way a head of?"...he replied, "77".