6M: 86s SB vs BB

[numeri]

Villain here is 50/19/1.13 after 40 hands. I'm still struggling with some lines vs. aggressive players. I should be raising PF if I'm playing, yes? Standard after that since I didn't?

Absolute 1/2 Hold'em (3 handed) (no converter)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero completes (raise here, yes?)</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (4 SB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls.

Turn: (4 BB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

River: (6 BB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

Final Pot: 8 BB

A related question: Suppose you raise this PF. What flops are good flops for you? If the flop contains paint, what's your plan? If you miss and the flop is ragged, do you bet/fold? Check/fold? Do you bet a good draw if you have one? Any other thoughts on hands like these versus an aggressive opponent?

think BB has a pocket pair? if so you're WA/WB

might be 77, betting on the draw

[numeri]

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think BB has a pocket pair? if so you're WA/WB

might be 77, betting on the draw

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No, I think BB has 44+, A7+, K8+, Q9+, or JT.

Vs. that range, I'm WA much more than I'm WB.

[jaxUp]

preflop I would likely raise here, and postflop, I think this is sexy. What if he raises river?

[milesdyson]

honestly, against this guy i fold preflop. he probably doesn't fold enough postflop to make raising good (and almost never folds his BB here), and he raises too much preflop to make completing good.

that said, i like every street postflop.

[numeri]

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What if he raises river?

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Ugh... good question. I have to call, but I don't expect to win very often. I don't have enough hands on the villain for a read that he's not tricksy and won't pull something like that with AK.

[numeri]

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honestly, against this guy i fold preflop. he probably doesn't fold enough postflop to make raising good (and almost never folds his BB here), and he raises too much preflop to make completing good.

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That was my thought as well. As soon as I clicked "call", I thought, "Damn. Now he's going to raise, and I have to call. Stupid." And you're right, he's not folding much, so I don't have much fold equity with a continuation bet.

grunch...

fold preflop?

[TomBrooks]

&gt; I should be raising PF if I'm playing, yes?

- Usually better to raise or fold. But I don't feel this hand is good enough to raise and I don't want it to get three bet, so I fold it against someone that defends his blinds aggressively.

- Middle suited connectors and one gappers are not as strong as high cards heads up.

- I wouldn't mind limping it against a BB that rarely raises.

&gt; What flops are good flops for you?

In order of best to worst, straight flushes, quads, full houses, rainbow straights, flushes, trips, two pair, one pair, low rags, high cards not of your suit. Note that a straight is probably better than a flush for you.

&gt; If you miss and the flop is ragged, do you bet/fold?

Not against a BB that three bet me.

&gt; Check/fold?

Yes, against a villian that three bet. He's got position on you. It's his hand unless you can win it with your cards. When your in position, you will almost always bet if OOP checks because it's your hand unless he has the cards to take it away from you.

&gt; Do you bet a good draw if you have one?

If you think villian might fold, yes, otherwise no. If you think villian likes to raise, then tend not to bet.

&gt; Any other thoughts on hands like these versus an aggressive opponent?

Just fold so-so stuff preflop against aggressive blind defenders.

[@bsolute_luck]

i like preflop. yeah this guy raises alot, but we still have a good hand compared to what he could have and i'd rather not get 3-bet and he isn't folding if we raise anyways.

i actually DON'T like postflop simply because this guy has an aggressive nature and we have to either pay the most and find out we're behind or fold possibly the best hand. and i really don't think this guy is finding the fold button no matter what we do so c/r isn't going to protect either.

c/c c/c c/c unless the board gets ugly anyone?

[lautzutao]

I don't have a problem with just completing there. Villian seems a bit jumpy...do you want to call a 3-bet with 86s?

I think postflop is fine.

Maybe try a stop and go? Bet out the flop, call the raise and then donk the turn?

[lautzutao]

Doesn't a hand like this pay us off more often than not if we hit a flop like this though?

I see what you're saying about folding it because you're gonna pay another bet possibly but 86s isn't horrible to play is it?

Hand Analysis -

Preflop - Raise

Flop / Turn - Good

River - I like a check call here, your not strong here, so I want to see the showdown for one bet at most.


Questions:

Suppose you raise this PF. What flops are good flops for you?

- To be honest, 2 clubs would be perfect, anything that pairs is good, then of course there is the 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif -- That would be good too. I think that you can assume that anything that is not supper coordinated and connects with you is pretty good.

If the flop contains paint, what's your plan?

Depends how much, if it includes a A, K AND Q, I fold to a bet without a second thought. If it includes 2 I will usually fold, if it inlcudes one it would be very read dependent.

If you miss and the flop is ragged, do you bet/fold?

No. Usually I take the line Check/Call or Bet/Call (depending on read, mostly Went to Show Down stat, and Flop Aggression Factor)

Check/fold?

At the very least I will check/call on the flop and see what the turn brings.

Do you bet a good draw if you have one?

I will check raise a Flush or OESD if the opponent is aggressive, or bet out if the opponent is passive.

Any other thoughts on hands like these versus an aggressive opponent?

I hate them and they are HARD to play. Plus they come along WAY too often.


Margon

[numeri]

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c/c c/c c/c unless the board gets ugly anyone?

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This may be results oriented, but I think we're way ahead more often than we're behind. If I'm 3-bet on the flop, I definitely have some thinking to do, but I think c/c to the river misses out on a lot of value. I think he'll easily pay off here with a lot of hands we beat.

[numeri]

Nice comments, Margon. Thanks for the reply.

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I hate them and they are HARD to play. Plus they come along WAY too often.

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And I'll second that. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Gotta learn how to play them, though. We can't avoid the aggressive players forever!

[baronzeus]

easy fold preflop. you played postflop great though.

[Aaron W.]

Folding preflop makes me sad. Raising is usually better than limping, especially since villain is prone to raising a lot of hands - you'd rather just raise and hope he has one of those 50% folding hands so that you win the pot without a flop instead of limp-calling and letting him dictate the action.

Once you get to postflop play, it looks fine. Bet-3-bet on the flop is also a nice line, especially if villain might call down with ace-high because it's only 3-handed.

[milesdyson]

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you'd rather just raise and hope he has one of those 50% folding hands so that you win the pot without a flop

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his vpip is 50% - i bet he defends here 80-90% of the time.

[Aaron W.]

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you'd rather just raise and hope he has one of those 50% folding hands so that you win the pot without a flop

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his vpip is 50% - i bet he defends here 80-90% of the time.

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So in the 80% range, you think he's defending any two suited and junk like 95o? Furthermore, do you think he outplays hero postflop with those hands?

[milesdyson]

yeah i think a player like this refuses to give up some pretty terrible hands. he'll also 3-bet you often, and postflop he'll peel a lot of flops, autobet turns if you check (sure you can check raise, but you have to hit something), bluff raise you somewhere, raise you with gutshots/bottom pairs, etc. add to this the fact that we're also going to be playing heads up in a rake-friendly game, and i don't think we can outplay him enough to make playing here profitable.

[Aaron W.]

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yeah i think a player like this refuses to give up some pretty terrible hands. he'll also 3-bet you often, and postflop he'll peel a lot of flops, autobet turns if you check (sure you can check raise, but you have to hit something), bluff raise you somewhere, raise you with gutshots/bottom pairs, etc. add to this the fact that we're also going to be playing heads up in a rake-friendly game, and i don't think we can outplay him enough to make playing here profitable.

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That's a lot of conjecture for "Villain here is 50/19/1.13 after 40 hands."

[Entity]

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easy fold preflop. you played postflop great though.

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Yup.

[Entity]

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do you think he outplays hero postflop with those hands?

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He's aggressive and doesn't fold much preflop and you have 8-high, and HE HAS POSITION.

If he had limped in the SB, there's a good chance I'd raise my 86s here. That's how important position is.

Rob

[milesdyson]

sure is. but it's based on my experience vs. players with his stats, and that's all we got.

[numeri]

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do you think he outplays hero postflop with those hands?

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He's aggressive and doesn't fold much preflop and you have 8-high, and HE HAS POSITION.

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This was my thought as soon as I completed. I knew I'd made a poor decision vs an aggressive player.

Any thoughts on the lowest suited/connected hands you'll play here against an aggressive player? Anyone else?

I'm thinking that J9s is an obvious raise. JTo is as well. Maybe not, though. What about T8s? 98s? 87s? T9o?

[numeri]

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sure is. but it's based on my experience vs. players with his stats, and that's all we got.

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Yeah, sorry about the weak read. I've been single tabling until I get a handle on the table, and then adding another, but for some reason I didn't have any comments on villain here. I should have after 40+ hands.