THE BIZARRE LAS VEGAS INCIDENT-- a must read.

[Tyler Durden]

I went to Vegas last week for the first time. I was playing in the Bellagio 8-16 game when this occurred:

I was minding my own business, not involved in the hand and kinda bored. I tune back into the world for the river action:

The board contains four clubs, including the Q <img src="/forums/images/icons/club.gif" alt="" /> and J <img src="/forums/images/icons/club.gif" alt="" />.

A man at the opposite end of the table is first to act, and he bets all-in with $3. The player to my immediate left, a good aggressive local named Chris, is his sole opponent in the hand. Chris gets an agonized look on his face and flips his hand over: QJo for top two pair. He hasn't decided what to do. To many, including me, this is an easy call--the pot was laying him about 33 to 1.

So Chris is deciding whether or not to call, and he says something like "It's not worth $3." Another guy says "Call, it's only three dollars." Then Chris says "if someone wants to call the $3 for me, they can have the pot." He still hadn't acted.

So I think, what the hell, I'm kinda bored, it's my last night, I'm trying to have fun and I pick up three blue chips and throw them into the pot. The dealer says "there's a call (i'm unsure if she knew where the call came from). The all-in bettor throws his hand into the muck as soon as the dealer announces the call. Chris still hasn't acted.

The dealer pushes the pot to me.

I see all the chips in front of me and I start laughing. I'm like "uhh, this is interesting." I tell Chris and the dealer that I can't take the pot. Then the pot gets pushed to Chris. The all-in bettor is aware of all that is happening but, for some reason, he hasn't said a word. Finally I say "we need a decision from the floor." The floor, Dave, comes over. The dealer says "well it's over now but...". And Dave says "it's over? well then just play poker" and tries to walk away. We're like "wait, we need a ruling." He listens to the story from Chris and the dealer. Dave calls the poker supervisor, Suzy, out to make a decision. Chris says a mucked hand can't take the pot. he's right. The all-in bettor speaks up: "The dealer said I had been called."

he's right too. and he was called by someone NOT IN THE HAND

murky situation. Chris never acted on the river. Remember, his hand was turned face up.

what's a proper ruling? Who gets the pot? The all-in bettor, Chris, or me?

results later.

[Homer]

The all-in bettor. Isn't Chris's hand dead when he turns it face up?

-- Homer

[Tyler Durden]

No. Many cardrooms, including the Taj and Trop in AC, do not consider a hand dead if it is turned up. This only applies in tournament play.

[Vehn]

Why did you say "I can't take the pot" and then be the only one to ask for a decision when everyone else was happy with Chris taking it? Ask for your $3 back and play cards.

Since the all-in better mucked his hand first it should be Chris' pot anyways. If the all-in better hypothetically bet the river, then mucked his hand before Chris acted (and you didn't throw in $3), the pot would be Chris' then too obviously.

Homer: exposed hands are not dead when heads up on the end like this. He can still call/raise/fold.

[dirty_dan]

This is certainly a different kind of "So I was just in Vegas for my first time and..." story. I have no idea who should have won but I would have loved to be there when it happened.

[Inthacup]

Why you didn't take the pot is beyond me. Did you expect to get your $3 back if it got pushed to Johnny All-in? If not then why decline the pot?

[Play Tight]

I'm not sure of the proper ruling for this hand. But I do know that in my local game a hand is not dead until it hits the muck.

I also make sure to ask the dealer to "kill" the hand before showing if I want to see what I was called down with. I learned this the tough way when I asked to see a hand and the dealer turned over a straight to beat my shown trips. The player had misread the board and actually got the pot. I asked for a floor ruling and was told that a hand is not "dead" until the player fails to call a bet, or the dealer "kills" it in the muck pile.

[Barry]

I was there...

and it was quite fun. Tyler can tell how it came out, but everybody was talking about it for the rest of the night. I had to invoke the bad beat story rule!

[Tyler Durden]

I think we all wanted the ruling, I was just the first to ask for one.

I asked for the floor b/c I knew the pot wasn't really mine, so I wanted a fair ruling.

[richie]

well, I think the all-in bettor should receive the pot. This is not based on cardroom rules per se, but just my opinion. The all-in bettor made a bluff at the pot, Chris didn't want to "waste" $3 calling a $100 pot, that's his problem. The all-in bettor is playing heads up vs. Chris, not the ENTIRE table. What right do you have to enter in the hand? And why isn't the dealer paying attention? This is why I do not enjoy playing live anymore, there's too much BSing going around. In my opinion, you cost this guy a $100 pot, and if it was you in that situation, I don't think you would be terribly happy with what happened. Not criticizing you really, just that cardrooms allow situations like these to occur. To me, Chris is angle shooting, and the house is allowing it. Why does the all-in bettor have to bluff the entire table to win the pot when he is heads-up? Just my opinion on cardrooms and dealers in particular.

[rkiray]

If I was the all-in player I would immediately call for the floor, and if the ruling went against me I would follow you to the parking lot and beat the c*** out of you for interfering in a hand you weren't involved in (only half joking on the last part).

[JTG51]

I don't know what the rule is, but I think the all in guy should get the pot.

It's amazing to me that the dealer let this happen. And it's disgusting to me that a player not involved in the hand told Chris to call after he saw his cards. The dealer really should have taken control of things right there and told everyone to keep their mouths shut. Obviously he or she wasn't paying even the slightest bit of attention though.

I also think it was pretty dumb for you to "call" the bet. At least you got a good story out of it.

You can probably tell, I think it's very, very important that players watching a hand don't do anything to influence the action.

[JTG51]

Why you didn't take the pot is beyond me.

Are you serious? How about the fact that Tyler didn't have any cards, so taking the pot would have been stealing?

You can't really think that taking the pot would have been OK, do you?

[rkiray]

Would you have followed him to the parking lot also? /forums/images/icons/cool.gif

[Ulysses]

I think the all in guy should get the pot.
I disagree. Maybe you can make a case that Chris acted a little inappropriately, but he is allowed to say anything he wants while deciding whether or not to call. I can't tell for sure one way or the other from the story, but it's not clear to me that Chris had definitively decided not to call, and he definitely still had his cards - therefore his hand is still live. Other stuff happened (someone else tossed in chips, dealer said call, other guy mucks) before he has mucked or called. Now he has the only live hand. So, he should get the pot.

It's amazing to me that the dealer let this happen.
I agree.

And it's disgusting to me that a player not involved in the hand told Chris to call after he saw his cards.
I agree.

I also think it was pretty dumb for you to "call" the bet.
I agree.

[Ulysses]

I also make sure to ask the dealer to "kill" the hand before showing if I want to see what I was called down with.

I consider this to be among the slimiest things anyone does at a cardroom. If you are called and your hand is good, why on earth are you asking to see the other person's hand?

At my cardroom (and many others), if the winner of the hand asks to see another hand, that hand is live regardless of whether or not the dealer touched it to the muck. If you asked and are shown a better hand, you lose - the penalty for boorish behavior.

[rkiray]

I'm glad you tossed in the three agrees at the end of the post. The first part of the post had me nervous. While technically you are correct, I believe there is a more important issue here. As Mason has written many times a card room doesn't just have to be clean, it needs to have an image of being completely clean. An incident like this could scare people away because it looks odd, and they may believe that some type of collusion is happening (I don't actually see how, but people see strange actions through many different fiiters). If this pot doesn't go to the all-in guy, new fish at the table may be scared away for life.

This is a really unfortunate event. I'm really glad I wasn't the floor person or poker supervisor. This one is tough.

[Tyler Durden]

I agree with JTG 100%. I'm lucky they didn't throw my ass out for the stunt I pulled.

[Tyler Durden]

...I can't deny that. I also found it funny though, that's why I did it. I'm a jackass, I'm willing to admit to that.

[Dynasty]

The only player with cards, Chris, should get this pot. Regardless of all the BS which happened, you can only give a pot to a player who actually has a live hand. Chris doesn't have to call the river bet if all his opponents have mucked.

[Bob T.]

I think that Chris gets the pot, he still has a live hand. I think the dealer, you, and the other player who said, call its only three bucks, in a perfect world should make up the pot that the bluffer lost. Because you all performed badly. The dealer, by not paying attention, and the two players by violating the one player to a hand rule. I know that didn't happen.

I think that a second, less attractive alternative, but probably more likely would be to suggest to Chris, that he has the option of splitting the pot with the bluffer. That might happen.

I'm glad that I wasn't the floor on this one. I would have been happy when the dealer said, 'its all over now' if it really was.

[Inthacup]

Then Chris says "if someone wants to call the $3 for me, they can have the pot."

So Chris is saying that he won't call but if someone else calls the $3, he'll let them have the pot. It's not stealing if it's given to you. Tyler didn't win the pot. Chris won it and it was given to Tyler. What's the big deal? All in mucked, Chris wins but concedes the pot to Tyler. If that's not allowed the Dealer should have blocked Tyler from putting $3 in front of Chris.

[Vehn]

Is chip passing at the table allowed at the Bellagio?

[rkiray]

Yeah, you seem to be a jackass but you have a good attitude about it. And you did call the floor to get a fair ruling.

[Inthacup]

I don't really know. I'm approx. 1800 miles from Vegas or 29hrs strait by car. If you can't then once again, the dealer should have piped up when Chris made his comment about giving the pot to someone else. If I had to guess how this turned out, I'd say that Tyler got his $3 back and the other two players agreed to chop the pot. But I see no problem with Tyler taking the whole thing.

[JTG51]

If that's not allowed the Dealer should have blocked Tyler from putting $3 in front of Chris.

Of course he/she should have, but they didn't. That's why this mess happened.

Maybe the most basic, universally accepted rule of poker is one person to a hand. Tyler is simply not allowed to influence another player's decisions when he's not in a hand, and he's REALLY not allowed to play someone's hand for them.

This kind of BS really get me worked up (as I'm sure you can tell). I doubt the all in guy ended up getting the whole pot, and to me that means he got robbed. He could have avoided the situation by paying better attention, but the poker room is supposed to protect players from this kind of crap. That's part of the reason why we pay the rake.

[slavic]

In a tourney the Casino would honor a deal. Why would that not apply here?

My official opinion is that bluffer boy should break out the heavy pipe and thumb screws, but oh well.

[SoBeDude]

He's not a jackass at all here.

I can see how someone who doesn't play regularly at a B&M (like myself) could easily get caught up in a situation like that and toss a few chips in without thinking of the consequences, thinking it was a harmless act.

I think he acted very appropriately by asking for the floor even though no one at the table complained.

What makes him a jackass is not having anything at those websites listed in his sig, dammit!! /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

-Scott

Just to share my opinion:

First, I don't know if "verbal declaration is binding" is one of the rules in Bellagio. If it is and Chris said "It's not worth 3 dollars....if someone want's to call it for me he can have the pot", what other interpretation can be made other than he is folding?

Second, Only 1 player to a hand, and the third is, as Vehn said, is chip-passing allowed in Bellagio?

I think the all-in guy should have the pot.

[Barry]

So Tyler, how long are you going to keep them all in suspense? /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

[oddjob]

i completely agree with this. i don't know for sure, but i would think that vegas has a one player per hand rule, and the player with the big mouth has broken this rule.

also you calling for the $3 also breaks the rules.

all-in player should be awarded the pot, and you two should be given warnings.

maybe even taken into the parking lot and beaten with hoses.

heh, ok maybe not.

[Tyler Durden]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
I think he acted very appropriately by asking for the floor even though no one at the table complained.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you. I agree. I knew what I did was wrong and dumb, so I wanted to make sure it got cleared up right away.

As for the websites, the first one was the name of an intramural basketball team in college. The other is one my friends and I joke about. But I'm surprised neither of them really exist. You should start them. You'd make a killing.

[JTG51]

As for the websites, the first one was the name of an intramural basketball team in college.

LOL, now that really is a good story to tell! My team was always called "Below The Rim".

[Tyler Durden]

If Mason can keep a thread going for a week, I can hold out for at least three more days, right?

[Barry]

OK, OK, I'll resist the urge to spill the beans!

[JTG51]

You'd better tell me when I see you tomorrow!

[JTG51]

...I can hold out for at least three more days, right?

Yeah, especially if people like me keep responding without actually saying anything!

Hey, I'm on my final push to Pooh-Bahness. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

[Bob T.]

I think that everyone has weighed in on this one, its time to let us know. /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

[JoeU]

My 2 cents are as follows:

I think calling the floor was proprer for the situation. I also agree with JTG in saying the dealer lost control of the hand being played.

However, If the other player mucked his hand before Chris "officially" acted, then Chris should get the pot.

Tyler, I hope you got your $3 back, if they didn't give you the money, then you should have kept the pot! Screw Them! /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

Joe

[Clarkmeister]

...Chris made an offer and Tyler accepted. Now Tyler should have told Chris to call and said he'd pay him after the hand, but he bypassed all that silliniess by tossing his $3 directly in the pot, but is it really that different than what "really" happened...namely that Tyler gave Chris $3 to put into the pot and Chris obliged. Verbal contract. Binding.

Chris should be pushed the pot and Chris should give it to Tyler. I certainly don't think Tyler did anything wrong by accepting Chris' offer, he just made a minor procedural error. But the result would have been the same regardless.

Tylers cash.

[JTG51]

Are you being serious Clarkmeister? I couldn't disagree more, if you think it's that simple maybe I'm way off base?

What about one person to a hand? The all in guy isn't playing Tyler and Chris, he's playing Chris. Isn't Chris the only one who can decide if he should call? It seems equally clear to me that Tyler and Chris were way out of line. This isn't blackjack where I can let someone else pay to double down my hand.

[richie]

FWIW, I agree 100% with you JTG. From the original post, it seems as though Chris was letting the hand go, and then several other people decided to get involved. Was the dealer playing with himself during this fiasco? And, at the very least, this all-in gentlemen certainly is owed some apologies from the players and the dealer, regardless of the floor's ruling.

[Clarkmeister]

I'm not saying you are wrong, just that I disagree.

Its unfortunate that Tyler threw the chips in himself because that made it complicated. What should have happened is that Tyler informed Chris that he accepted his offer, and Chris should have called. The outcome of the call would either be Chris paying Tyler the amount of the pot later on, or Tyler giving Chris $3 whenever possible.

But Tyler accepted the offer and if the all-in guy had won, Tyler would have been out $3. He has a right to expect the winnings since he won.

As it turned out, both Tyler and the Dealer simple cut straight to the chase and eliminated the middle man, but that IMO doesn't change what fundamentally was occurring, namely Chris was fulfilling a verbal committment to Tyler by calling - with the intention of either being reimbursed, or giving the pot to Tyler.

As for 1 player to a hand, Tyler didn't tell Chris to call. He didn't tell him to fold. By accepting the offer, he essentially just said that he'd assume the risk, which is OK with me. Its not like Chris said "what should I do", was told to call and then won. Chris said "if you want to, you can assume the risk". I don't have a problem with that.

If I were in Tylers shoes, I would be bent if I didn't get to keep the pot, especially since it is obvious I would have lost my $3 if the other guy had won the hand.

Is this really any different than Chris calling, then turning to Tyler before all-in shows his hand and saying "I'll bet you the pot vs your $3 that I lose this"?

I don't think so.

[AceHigh]

"What about one person to a hand?"

Exactly. I agree 100%.

I don't think this would happen at the Taj in AC, because a good dealer wouldn't let it. I'm not very impressed with the quality of dealers at the Bellagio.

[JTG51]

I guess we'll just have to agree to strongly disagree. You usually make good enough arguments to at least make me rethink my position, not this time.

Is this really any different than Chris calling, then turning to Tyler before all-in shows his hand and saying "I'll bet you the pot vs your $3 that I lose this"?

I think it's very different, I guess that's the crux of the disagreement. That might be a good comparison if Chris was planning on calling, all indications are that he was going to fold though. Tyler changed his action. To me, this isn't any different that Chris saying, "I think I'm going to fold, do you think that's a good idea?" I think everyone would agree that if it was phrased that way Chris and Tyler would be breaking the rules.

As for the binding verbal contact, I don't think that matters since I don't think Chris had the right to offer the deal in the first place.

[J.R.]

Why should the whole table have the right to pick off the all-in players bluff? He got screwed. This is why most cardrooms do not allow side-bets. If you want to call a bluff, keep your cards. Otherwise, shut up and keep out of someone else's pot.

[Tyler Durden]

Floor was called, who in turn called a supervisor. After much debate the pot was awarded to the all-in bettor.

Bellagio then matched the pot and awarded it to Chris. Chris and I chopped it up.

[Your Mom]

I think I speak for everyone when I say - About damn time!

[RockLobster]

That is an interesting and quite fair solution. I guess that's about as good as anyone could hope for.

[MD_]

I'd have been stacking those chips as fast as I could. If I'd been dealing it wouldn't have happened at all.

-MD

[bigfishead]

Let me just say this is my opinion only and this is how
I think I'd have reacted as things developed.

1. You throw your $3 in the pot I throw it back and say one player to a hand very sternly so as to protect bettor
that is all-in.

2. If "caller" (guy with the Q) makes forward motion with cards I muck it. Where I am from "forward motion" kills the
hand completely. No LV shot taking. (not that this was tried at all)

3. I basically am trying to get person to act on his hand
either way, on his own. I dont care. If bettor mucks before
caller calls then caller must still put chips forward to make call. If he drops his hand he loses. However, at the point he drops his hand I call time to halt all action and call the floor. With action frozen floor decides who gets pot. Bettor w/o hand or caller w/o calling.I think he pushes it to bettor as Caller hand is dead w/o a call of last bet.

Problem is these things can happen too fast for any dealer to do anything about them. As a dealer we can not "control"
you the player. We can only try to do our best to keep the integrity of the game in hand. And no matter what we are stuck in a [censored] pile when something like this happens. It's funny to hear about now but we end up taking the heat
from floor and shift boss later, and 1, 2, or even 3 players now. And trust me there's a bunch of heat on this kinda goofy [censored].

I must say I laughed my ass off reading it tho. And at the same time thinking uhoh trouble is brewing.

Very interesting result and I lkie the final decisions completely.

Thanks for the story.

[Barry]

Hey Tyler -

My recollection is a little different here.

While Tyler shouldn't have thrown in the chips and the all-in guy shouldn't have mucked so fast, the problem lies principally with the dealer. She wasn't paying attention to the action that was going on. As soon as Tyler's chips hit the table she says "That's a call" and the all-in guy mucks.

Because the all-in guy mucked his hand before Chris "officially acted", he (all-in guy) couldn't be awarded the pot. The pot which was about $120 was pushed to Chris; however, because the dealer acted incorrectly, the floor told the dealer to give the all-in guy $100 from the tray. I'm sure that the dealer was given some "remedial" training after that.

An excellent decision by the floor!

Tyler said that he would "accept" half of the pot, and he and Chris split it. Tyler, you should have gone for the whole thing.

Funny thing though, at about 40-1, this was a no brainer call. I was stunned that Chris didn’t call immediately.