$10/$20 hand-what would you do??

[Indiana]

Ok here goes. $10/$20 game. I limp from early position with 8h8c after a guy UTG limps just off the BB. A MP two seats after me raises and everybody calls including the blinds. At this point there's like $100 in the pot and I'm in the pot with 4 opponents. The flop comes down Qh 7h 2c. It gets checked around (hmmmm). The turn comes Qs. So the board is Qh 7h 2c Qs. The SB checks and the BB bets out and its to me with a few guys behind me. What do I do?

Results to follow later,

Indy

[Fianchetto]

I think it's raise or fold time. A read on the turn bettor would be helpful, but I'd lean towards a raise.

[Indiana]

No read on turn bettor.

Indy

[MNpoker]

I'd bet that flop to gain info.

I raise the turn.
The BB could easily have a 7 or a 2 here (In fact I would say that more probable than a Q). The chances of someone having a queen in late position have been reduced by:
A) There are now only 2 outstanding
B) I would expect a late position player to bet the flop with a queen to drive out hands with 1 overcard.

[Jeffage]

Definitely bet the flop. You might be best and you might be raised by a worse hand. How do you feel about free cards if your 8's are currently good?

As played, go ahead and raise the turn. If you get reraised fold. Then play well on the river.

Jeff

[Indiana]

I agree with the raise on the turn but bet the flop into a sizable field with that hand and a preflop raiser behind?

Indy

This turn is not raise or fold. The BB's most likely hand is a 7. Any flush draw or queen would have likely bet the flop, so I would call, and pay close attention to what the players behind you do. You likely have the better beaten, and everyone else is probably folding, and if it comes back to you for two more you can fold comfortably.

[tongni]

I'd fold the turn, but I think raising is ok too. Betting the flop sucks.

[onegymrat]

I completely agree. I think the OP is normally either sitting pretty or royally screwed. BB could completely play this way with a queen, with the whole "check to the raiser" thing, but it would really depend on how the opponents are. If uncertain about the table, a default raise could theoretically drive out overcards and/or weak preflop raiser (i.e. 99-JJ, AK?).

[Indiana]

Exactly, I actually thought the big blind might have me here and missed a CR opportunity on the flop. Of course I couldnt be sure...But I think betting on the flop is the wrong move regardless of any other variable.

Indy

[onegymrat]

It would normally be foolish to disagree with Jeffage on any play advice, but I would probably check the flop as well. It is moments like this that separates the good players from the bad players. My move on the turn?...err, whatever you want to do.

[Indiana]

No disrespect to Jeffage. I don't post here a lot as I am a NL player. However, this hand got me thinking about what to do and I had to post it. He could be right but it doesn't seem right to me. Again, I am just a simple No Limit player and in a NL game the options for play differ significantly.

Indy

[Jeffage]

You said, you saw the flop with 4 opponents. So I would assume that to mean: UTG, Hero, Preflop raiser, one caller, and one blind. Half of your opponents have checked and two remain to act behind you, inc. the preflop raiser. I would bet and see what happens. A couple more opponents and I'd lean towards checking. You may have the best hand and if you get checkraised or preflop aggressor raises you and someone coldcalls, you can let it go. I just think betting the flop here has a number of benefits after what has transpired when the action gets to you.

I don't think checking is horrible.

Jeff

Bet the flop, check the turn and if bet into, check-raise. You need to send a message you aren't one to be reckoned with.

[Indiana]

Thanks Jeffage. And yes, you are clear on the number of players and the situation. I just thought with all the preflop action that I should follow the "no set, no bet" idea of limit HE.

Indy

[SLEEPER]

You have 5 players in a raised pot.... I think anyone that holds a Q would most definetely bet, as the pot has become large, and there are potentially good hands to pay you off. Once the hand is checked through, one has to think that someone is slowplaying a monster, or it is very possible that your 8's are good. The possibility of somebody having 9's or 10's is the reason why I would raise this turn. If reraised, you can easily release. I don't like betting this flop, because for one bet players will generally call with hands like 9's, 10's, 7's, AK and maybe even a hand like J10. If the preflop raiser bets, you can either fold or checkraise!

I like a check in this spot most of the time!

Sleeper

[Subfallen]

[ QUOTE ]
Betting the flop sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? Plz elaborate.

[RobbyD]

I think betting the flop is best! You can use his raise to drive out other players. Also if someone check then 3-bets his raise you know right where you are for the bargain price of 1SB. I think the turn situation sucks! Thats why you need to bet the flop. The turn is a raise or fold.

[elindauer]

Hi Indiana,

The big blind may well have a queen. Many players check to the raiser no matter how hard they hit the flop.

Still, you have a strong hand given the action so far. The pot is big enough that you probably can't fold, and if you're not folding you should raise. There are lots of hands that you can knock out and save yourself the pot vs the big blind's 7-whatever.

good luck.
eric

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd bet that flop to gain info.

[/ QUOTE ]

What information do you gain by betting this? If the raiser calls, you are ahead? or maybe behind. What about if he raises? Then you could easily be ahead or behind, but who knows which. Well, at least you opened the betting so that, if the pfr was actually going to check, you could get check-raised by a Q and actually have paid more than necessary to ensure that you do not get a chance to draw out on the turn. Huh?

It's MUCH cheaper to just check to the raiser here and let the action from his autobet back to you let you decide what to do. If he bets and everybody folds, you might continue. He bets and gets action? fold. He checks? Woo hoo, free turn. You are slightly ahead or way behind. This is not the time to ensure a Q can check-raise.

my 2 cents.
eric

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
Definitely bet the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

With an underpair against a significant field and a preflop raiser, giving free cards is not a big concern. You are frequently behind, don't put money in drawing near dead when you can check and have them clearly tell you that you are dead.

If it gets checked through and you actually are ahead, you can evaluate the turn and go from there.

-Eric

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
This turn is not raise or fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

You realize you only have 88 here, right? If you're playing on, it's time to start cleaning some outs.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
I just thought with all the preflop action that I should follow the "no set, no bet" idea of limit HE.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where did this idea come from?

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Bet the flop, check the turn and if bet into, check-raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you bet the flop, the turn is a perfect card to bet with again.

b

[Indiana]

Thank you for the great responses. I know that results do not prove if anybody is right or wrong but here goes. On the actual hand I was just about to fold when something from within made me raise the turn. When I raised everybody folded back to the BB who called. He checked the river and I checked behind. He only had A6s. Yes!!! Perhaps I was lucky, but I also thought afterwards that I was right to raise.

Indy

[SoSo]

If you raise here and get it hu with the bb on the river. If its a brick, is this an easy value bet when checked too?

[MNpoker]

I would bet the river if it's a brick.

[Indiana]

I need to apologize. He had A7s. So he did have two pair but lower than mine.

Indy

[Indiana]

I have to disagree with this. Is this a clear value bet? I thought he could have 99,1010,JJ....come on...

Indy

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
If you raise here and get it hu with the bb on the river. If its a brick, is this an easy value bet when checked too?

[/ QUOTE ]

As a default, yes, I'd bet the river, expecting to get called by lots of weaker pairs. As you see, I think his most likely hand is a 7.

good luck.
eric

[mj12]

i say he was trying for a c/r with a q or a mid pp or praying for folds with a hand like aj or lower pair. THis q has really improved your chances of winning the hand, rr, the pot is big and you are ahead of bb most of time. call/check the river if u get heads up with him

[shant]

Yeah, it's a value bet.