So I just read TJ Cloutier's book

[Bandgeek]

The basic idea I got from the book was this
AA and KK are ok to play. You can raise with QQ but you have to fold to a reraise.

Everything else is garbage pretty much.

Maybe I need to read it again but this seemed to be the basic premise of the book. In the example hands were 10 different ways to play AA and KK but that was about it.

I do like his "if you don't flop it fold it" strategy for playing AK, but otherwise it seems the strategy is way too tight to be successful with since you don't get these hands often enough.

What was your take on the book?

[vulturesrow]

Now that youve read it you can throw it away? How bad is it you say? I keep pretty much every book I buy, just because I like books. This one got donated to the library. The only reason it didnt get shitcanned is because I am hoping some fish picks itup. It wont make him aggro for sure but I'll win lots of small pots off him. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

You want to get better at NL? Read this forum lots, post hands, and respond to hand posts.

[afreeman]

I read it too, and came to largely the same conclusion.

While I don't think that it offers bad advice, it is clearly geared to the new player, attempting to guide them to a fairly weak-tight strategy. While that isn't ideal over the long-run, it is probably the best approach for a new player, until they get enough experience to branch out. You probably won't lose money following Cloutier's advice, though you won't make anything either.

Unfortunately, the only really good NL book that I have found is "Harrington on Hold'em" and even much of that is geared toward tourny play.

I also read "Mastering No-Limit Hold'em" by Fox and Harker. Its not bad (sort of picks up where Cloutier's book leaves off), but its still pretty thin on theory and a bit simplistic in its examples.

Probably the best book overall is "Theory of Poker". Its dense and the prose is a bit drab at times, but it covers everything and does it well.

Finally, you might try taking this topic over to the books forum. While I think its relevant here (since its NL-specific), that forum might have more useful commentary for you.

I would say use it as toilet paper, but the pages are a little rough maybe. You don't want to have paper cuts down there.

[Skuzzy]

The one sub-titled "The Bible to Winning Hold'em Tournaments and Cash Games" ? I'm sure I see devotees out there every day on VPIP 6% and PFR 2% - hallelujah! (How do you spell that?)

It's been awhile since I read the book, and I remember it being fairly poorly organized and written. Having said that, Cloutier basic philosophy is to stay out of trouble. And I think for the beginner or for the SSNL player that idea is pretty important.

I'm sure it's fun beating your fists agaisnt your chests and mocking what an idiot Cloutier is, but I think we must remember another great poker player's maxim.

"bluffing = losing money." -- TheWorstPlayer

Keeping yourself out of bad situations is probably the most important thing in NL above all else. That's what Cloutier tries to hammer home (apparently unsuccessfully).

[vulturesrow]

Well said, I meant to bring this up in my post. But honestly, its just not that great a book for a NL beginner.

[djoyce003]

it didn't seem that bad to me...maybe i'm just different, but this is a TOURNAMENT book, not a cash game book, despite the fact that it advertises itself as a book for both. It isn't, and as a tournament book goes, it isn't bad. It's good enough to make a bad player do decent in a tournament, which is probably it's basic premise anyway.

[ QUOTE ]
it didn't seem that bad to me...maybe i'm just different, but this is a TOURNAMENT book, not a cash game book, despite the fact that it advertises itself as a book for both. It isn't, and as a tournament book goes, it isn't bad. It's good enough to make a bad player do decent in a tournament, which is probably it's basic premise anyway.

[/ QUOTE ] But - HoHE is good enough to make a bad player actually money in a tournament.

Think of these books as starting hands. Harrington, you have KK in late position. Cloutier's book is Q7o UTG. Sure, both hands COULD win... but one has a much better chance.

[subzero]

[ QUOTE ]
Think of these books as starting hands. . . . Cloutier's book is Q7o UTG.

[/ QUOTE ]
Insta-fold preflop! /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[mudbuddha]

u fold that hand UTG?
ur pretty weak tight...

okay, so i'll admit, i dont think TJ's book is so bad, i went on a trip to ireland to watch my buddy play poker there and his dad lent me that book to read, i forgot Harringotn vol2 at home by accident.

Anyways, when i came home from my hiatus, i dont know if it was the break from poker or TJ's influence but i crushed tourny games/cash games playing 25/50 cent and went on a tear for a month..

hahah so it can't be all bad, for anyone who plays very lag like me, its always good to see a tighter strategy of someone who will not bet AK unless they flop it.

[betgo]

You can save money buying the book. I have distilled some of the key wisdom here:

You should only reraise preflop with AA or KK.

Say you reraise with AK and get two callers. The flop comes AQQ. You should check/fold. While a good player would fold QQ to a reraise, it is likely someone called with QQ and has quads.

Making a big overbet push (short stacked in a tournament) from late position with a small pair is a bad play. It is better to put in a standard raise. Then you can fold if you are beaten or outdrawn.

Unsuited connectors are as good as suited connectors. You are likely to lose money by making a flush that is not the nuts.

If you raise with AK and miss the flop you should fold. It is obvious your opponent(s) are ahead of you with small to medium pocket pairs.

If you raise with KK and an ace flops, you should check/fold.

Say you call a raise and flop a set. Your opponent leads out. You should make a big overbet raise to get your opponent to fold, so he won’t be able to catch anything to beat you. The book indicates that in particular this is the proper way to play against TJ.

Don’t try to steal in particular from late position. Late position steals are too predictable.

Avoid draws. You just wind up bleeding chips calling and chasing. Otherwise, you wind up putting all your chips in behind. Don’t play suited connectors. They just lead to draws.

Sometimes you have to go on feel and raise with a weak hand. If you raise with 72o and the flop comes 772, no one will put you on 72 and you can win a big pot.

55 and TT are particularly valuable because they are key cards for straights.

[ QUOTE ]
You can save money buying the book. I have distilled some of the key wisdom here:

You should only reraise preflop with AA or KK.

Say you reraise with AK and get two callers. The flop comes AQQ. You should check/fold. While a good player would fold QQ to a reraise, it is likely someone called with QQ and has quads.

Making a big overbet push (short stacked in a tournament) from late position with a small pair is a bad play. It is better to put in a standard raise. Then you can fold if you are beaten or outdrawn.

Unsuited connectors are as good as suited connectors. You are likely to lose money by making a flush that is not the nuts.

If you raise with AK and miss the flop you should fold. It is obvious your opponent(s) are ahead of you with small to medium pocket pairs.

If you raise with KK and an ace flops, you should check/fold.

Say you call a raise and flop a set. Your opponent leads out. You should make a big overbet raise to get your opponent to fold, so he won’t be able to catch anything to beat you. The book indicates that in particular this is the proper way to play against TJ.

Don’t try to steal in particular from late position. Late position steals are too predictable.

Avoid draws. You just wind up bleeding chips calling and chasing. Otherwise, you wind up putting all your chips in behind. Don’t play suited connectors. They just lead to draws.

Sometimes you have to go on feel and raise with a weak hand. If you raise with 72o and the flop comes 772, no one will put you on 72 and you can win a big pot.

55 and TT are particularly valuable because they are key cards for straights.

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm...this doesn't sound that bad to me...seriously.

And I haven't read HOH all the way through, but from what I can tell Harrington's style and Cloutier's style are actually pretty similar. They both are very tight, and play their big hands very strong. Granted Harrington's book seems much better done overall than Cloutier's.

[Malachii]

Listen to what Cloutier has to say about AK: Namely fold it to a reraise (generally speaking) if you're OOP, be selective with reraising it, and don't go to the felt with it preflop.

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
Umm...this doesn't sound that bad to me...seriously.

And I haven't read HOH all the way through, but from what I can tell Harrington's style and Cloutier's style are actually pretty similar. They both are very tight, and play their big hands very strong. Granted Harrington's book seems much better done overall than Cloutier's.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is the best approach. Always check/fold if you might be behind. Check your opponent to fold if you have a huge hand.

[arod15]

Wrong forumn and re-read it....