$15+1 turbo - AKo vs raise and call

[housenuts]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP3 (t1775)
CO (t1420)
Hero (t1415)
SB (t1850)
BB (t220)
UTG (t1240)
UTG+1 (t1555)
MP1 (t2900)
MP2 (t1125)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises to t150</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls t150, <font color="#CC3333">Hero ?</font>

Can I push here or should I wait and see a flop?

[pineapple888]

I push here because I don't want to invite the blinds into the hand. Four or five people in a pot gives you poor reverse implied odds with AK. I just want to take it down now if possible.

push it, and quick too. they are probably folding, giving you a quite confortable T1800 stack, and youre rarely behind if someone calls.

this is very often the case with AK, and hence it is a good preflop pushing hand.

[Dr_Jeckyl_00]

I would call and fold if you don't improve... AK gets you into a lot of trouble... 2 people interested in pot, one or both are likely to call if you push pf. You're probably up against an Ax and a pocket pair... no need to gamble this early in tourney

Plus you have position post flop so if it is checked to you you might even try a continuation bet of t150 if rags flop.

[The Yugoslavian]

Errmm...just push here, there is t375 (more than 1/3 of your stack) in the middle, you have tons of FE and even when called you fare well vs. your opponents' calling range.

Calling and then folding 2/3 of the flops is a big mistake...especially since you won't necessarily get paid off when you do hit.

In a smaller pot I like calling.

Yugoslav

[Dr_Jeckyl_00]

[ QUOTE ]
I push here because I don't want to invite the blinds into the hand. Four or five people in a pot gives you poor reverse implied odds with AK. I just want to take it down now if possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree, AK is great multi way b/c you get good pot odds. I think you're behind if you push here b/c there are 2 opponents and you will need to get lucky. Blinds are not calling unless they have a hand.

[Dr_Jeckyl_00]

[ QUOTE ]
Errmm...just push here, there is t375 (more than 1/3 of your stack) in the middle, you have tons of FE and even when called you fare well vs. your opponents' calling range.

Calling and then folding 2/3 of the flops is a big mistake...especially since you won't necessarily get paid off when you do hit.

In a smaller pot I like calling.

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

AK is my nemesis. The times I push and lose have to be equal to the times I call and miss flop. When I miss flop I am still alive to keep playing. AK is worse than 22, yet treated like AA-QQ... I don't know... can't figure out how to play AK early at early levels... I had a recent stretch were 10 out of 20 games were lost w/ AK

[pineapple888]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I push here because I don't want to invite the blinds into the hand. Four or five people in a pot gives you poor reverse implied odds with AK. I just want to take it down now if possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree, AK is great multi way b/c you get good pot odds.



[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, like when AJ8 falls, and one opponent has a set of eights, and the other has two-pair AJ, and the third has a straight draw, and the fourth has a flush draw.

Obviously this is extreme, but it's real, real easy to go broke with AK in a multi-way pot when you hit.

[ QUOTE ]

I think you're behind if you push here b/c there are 2 opponents and you will need to get lucky.


[/ QUOTE ]

Luck is part of poker, last I checked. To steal from your other reply:

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1278594
pokenum -h ad kc - js jh - ah qs
Holdem Hi: 1370754 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Kc Ad 465971 33.99 885662 64.61 19121 1.39 0.346
Js Jh 609928 44.50 756326 55.18 4500 0.33 0.446
Qs Ah 275734 20.12 1075899 78.49 19121 1.39 0.208

You're just about 1/3 to triple up *if* they both call. Add in your fold equity, things are looking fine.

[ QUOTE ]

Blinds are not calling unless they have a hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you call, you are pricing them in to call with marginal hands like low pairs and suited connectors. Exactly what you *don't* want with AK in a multiway pot.

[pineapple888]

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[ QUOTE ]
Errmm...just push here, there is t375 (more than 1/3 of your stack) in the middle, you have tons of FE and even when called you fare well vs. your opponents' calling range.

Calling and then folding 2/3 of the flops is a big mistake...especially since you won't necessarily get paid off when you do hit.

In a smaller pot I like calling.

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

AK is my nemesis. The times I push and lose have to be equal to the times I call and miss flop. When I miss flop I am still alive to keep playing. AK is worse than 22, yet treated like AA-QQ... I don't know... can't figure out how to play AK early at early levels... I had a recent stretch were 10 out of 20 games were lost w/ AK

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, you're in good company. T.J. Cloutier says it's the biggest decision hand in poker. There are many subtleties. You just have to try to think it through, in any given situation.

[Dr_Jeckyl_00]

I should clarify, AK is good for its str8 and flush potential, not tptk...

[splashpot]

[ QUOTE ]
I should clarify, AK is good for its str8 and flush potential, not tptk...

[/ QUOTE ]
AK has terrible straight potential. It can only make one straight. And this post is about AKo so it has terrible flush potential too.

[pooh74]

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I should clarify, AK is good for its str8 and flush potential, not tptk...

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats REALLY bad thinking DJ. If you want to play a hand purely for its "implied odds" here, then AKo is one of the last you choose. Think about why, besides the obvious.

54s, 44 etc...these you might call after two raises (not recomended, but this is what you mean)

[housenuts]

[ QUOTE ]


AK is my nemesis. The times I push and lose have to be equal to the times I call and miss flop. When I miss flop I am still alive to keep playing. AK is worse than 22, yet treated like AA-QQ... I don't know... can't figure out how to play AK early at early levels... I had a recent stretch were 10 out of 20 games were lost w/ AK

[/ QUOTE ]

i disagree. AK is not worse than 22. heads up, the two hands vs. each other, sure 22 is the favourite but i'd still rather have AK. If you push with AK and get called there's only 2 hands you don't want to see (AA and KK) and you're not even in horrible shape against KK. other hands that call are either a flip, or you have dominated.

on the other hand, if you push with 22 and get called you are a coinflip at best unless some donk calls you with exactly A2.

you can't really call with 22 either because you know you're either in serious trouble or a flip. with AK you can decide if you feel like gambling

[pooh74]

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[ QUOTE ]
Errmm...just push here, there is t375 (more than 1/3 of your stack) in the middle, you have tons of FE and even when called you fare well vs. your opponents' calling range.

Calling and then folding 2/3 of the flops is a big mistake...especially since you won't necessarily get paid off when you do hit.

In a smaller pot I like calling.

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

AK is my nemesis. The times I push and lose have to be equal to the times I call and miss flop. When I miss flop I am still alive to keep playing. AK is worse than 22, yet treated like AA-QQ... I don't know... can't figure out how to play AK early at early levels... I had a recent stretch were 10 out of 20 games were lost w/ AK

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats why this hand should be a push. I would push here. No calling and messing around with cBets in a 3way hand. BTW, on a seperate note, I dont like cBetting a PF raiser if its checked to me on flop with someone else in the hand as well...Ill almost always take the free card (unless I am shortstacked and the pot is juicy).

p

[ QUOTE ]
I should clarify, AK is good for its str8 and flush potential, not tptk...

[/ QUOTE ]

Yah, it's one straight is way better than all those TPTKs it makes. ESPECIALLY considering SnGs are usually played as short stack poker.

[Sykes]

DJ, the reason that AK is regarded as highly as AA-QQ here is because if you push here with 22 and you get called by JJ you're a 4 to 1 dog. If you get called when holding AK against JJ you're a small dog and the extra money in the pot makes up for that small underdog that you are.

[Paragon]

AK is the workhorse of tourneys because of the power of fold equity pre flop in situations like these (and because you are dealt AK more than twice as often as a specific pair).

If you use PokerTracker, AK/AKs combined better be in the top 5 for net profit in tourney chips. By comparison, 22 will be much lower on the list.

[Gomez22]

Reading this caused me to think about how I play AKo in similar situations and my line/plan of attack for cases like this.

For me, personally, AKo is merely a drawing hand that has no real value in a situation like this. When I have position on a PF raiser, I like to just call with AK, see a flop, and play the hand as accordingly as I see fit. The difference here is that damn CO that called in between you and the PF raiser.

If you call, you're giving BB 5.25-1 odds to call, and the SB 4.2-1 to call; not good, but no one ever said that the blinds are thinking players who realize what pot odds are. Also, you have given no information about the players already in the pot in front of you. Are they weak? tight? LAGgish? Without any of that info, it's hard to make an educated guess as to how to play the hand.

From your post, I think it's close between folding and pushing (personally, I would fold here. You have plenty of chips for a few more orbits, you have no idea what the blinds are going to do, and a push negates your positional advantage), with calling being the worst of the 3 options. AKo is a hand similar to mid-pairs...... if you're going to play it, you don't want to play it against more than 1 (maybe 2) opponents. You DO have some FE, but I don't like getting involved in a raise/call situation in front of me without a very good hand.

[pooh74]

(personally, I would fold here. You have plenty of chips for a few more orbits, you have no idea what the blinds are going to do, and a push negates your positional advantage)


This is flawed logic. Thats like buying a lottery ticket, winning, and then not redeeming it because it negates the value of the paper it was printed on.

An exagerated analogy? yes, but you get the point. The value of the hand coupled with the FE and sandwiching effect of the push MORE than make up for the giving up of a "positional advantage". Folding here is horrible...calling is bad too.

Cmon guys, this is where SNGs are won! If you had a gun to your head on winning this one SNG, then maybe I would think about this...but over a large sample, a push here is the optimal play.

[Dr_Jeckyl_00]

[ QUOTE ]
DJ, the reason that AK is regarded as highly as AA-QQ here is because if you push here with 22 and you get called by JJ you're a 4 to 1 dog. If you get called when holding AK against JJ you're a small dog and the extra money in the pot makes up for that small underdog that you are.

[/ QUOTE ]

You bring up a very good point and I understand and agree that AK has the potential to become a great hand, but... your still a dog. Don't mistake me here I am not saying I will push 22 here... In fact the only hands I would push in this specific example are AA-QQ. JJ or less I am folding. I just hate pushing AK and risking my tourney life a draw... I know it will hit sometimes, but I just hate losing with it... when I could have folded and still been in the game in good shape... FWIW, I have had some long losing streaks w/ AK...

[skiier04]

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[ QUOTE ]
DJ, the reason that AK is regarded as highly as AA-QQ here is because if you push here with 22 and you get called by JJ you're a 4 to 1 dog. If you get called when holding AK against JJ you're a small dog and the extra money in the pot makes up for that small underdog that you are.

[/ QUOTE ]

You bring up a very good point and I understand and agree that AK has the potential to become a great hand, but... your still a dog. Don't mistake me here I am not saying I will push 22 here... In fact the only hands I would push in this specific example are AA-QQ. JJ or less I am folding. I just hate pushing AK and risking my tourney life a draw... I know it will hit sometimes, but I just hate losing with it... when I could have folded and still been in the game in good shape... FWIW, I have had some long losing streaks w/ AK...

[/ QUOTE ]


You would honestly fold JJ here???


And im reallt getting sick of all this OMG AK IS TEH TRASH IT IS DRAWING HAND!!!


AK is a premium hand. It can be folded preflop it certain specific situations.


This isnt one of them.

[Gomez22]

What I posted what was I was thinkig as I was reading the post. The OP gave no reads, and no tendencies of either player already acting in front of them, nor any texture of the table.

All too often, more than a fair share of posters on these forums over-dramatize the value of AK. I have pushed in similar situations with AK before and prolly will do so many more times.

With no reads, the OP's chip stack, and the blind level being what they are, there can be other situations to get chips into the pot. Also, given the loose nature of $15/1 SNG players, do you wanna put all your chips into the pot not really knowing how players act and their tendencies?

I also stated in my original reply that I thought it was close to pushing/folding with calling being the worst of 3 options. Did you fail to read that, as well?

Poker is a game of context. It is impossible to say if you were sitting there or I was sitting there at the table playing we would definately fold or definately push as we may have differing reasons for doing either play and with no reads in this situation, when I read the OP, I would fold given the vagueness of the post.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
What I posted what was I was thinkig as I was reading the post. The OP gave no reads, and no tendencies of either player already acting in front of them, nor any texture of the table.

All too often, more than a fair share of posters on these forums over-dramatize the value of AK. I have pushed in similar situations with AK before and prolly will do so many more times.

With no reads, the OP's chip stack, and the blind level being what they are, there can be other situations to get chips into the pot. Also, given the loose nature of $15/1 SNG players, do you wanna put all your chips into the pot not really knowing how players act and their tendencies?

I also stated in my original reply that I thought it was close to pushing/folding with calling being the worst of 3 options. Did you fail to read that, as well?

Poker is a game of context. It is impossible to say if you were sitting there or I was sitting there at the table playing we would definately fold or definately push as we may have differing reasons for doing either play and with no reads in this situation, when I read the OP, I would fold given the vagueness of the post.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are not getting any info here by calling at this buyin...This isnt 10/20 nl. In a low level SNG you have to find the edges when you can and keep on pounding them over time. This push is the most +EV option here, followed, far behind by folding. (Folding 2nd because you will not find a larger edge normally throughout the rest of this game).

Wasnt attacking you, just your weak-tightness.