Bad luck or did I walk into a trap? [Archive]

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10-13-2005, 12:18 PM

Hey everyone, i'm pretty new to the game and i was just wondering if i could get some input on my play in this hand. Should i have folded on the turn?

PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, MP2 raises, 5 folds, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.40 SB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets, MP2 raises, UTG folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.70 BB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls.

River: (7.70 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets, Hero raises, MP2 3-bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 13.70 BB

irishpint

10-13-2005, 12:22 PM

raise pf and then the hand plays a bit differently.

how you played it i'll c/c the turn and lead the river (calling a raise). the reason for this is if he doesn't have an A he isn't too likely to bet the river but might call our bet thinking we're bluffing. by c/r first it most likely means he has a good hand (if he's betting, maybe even better than ours) and it leaves us open to a 3bet and we certainly cannot fold.

bozlax

10-13-2005, 12:23 PM

Raise preflop. If he 3-bets, you have a better idea of what he might be holding. When he raises you on the flop, and UTG folds, I 3-bet. If you're not doing that, it's only to save the raise for the turn. The way you played it, I see no point in raising the river...if you're beat, he's 3-betting, if you're winning, he folds.

crownjules

10-13-2005, 12:25 PM

Raise preflop, AQ is a good hand. Bet/3-bet the flop. If MP2 is still raising you after all of this, I'd check/call the turn and river.

10-13-2005, 12:25 PM

*grunch*

I would not fold the turn. I don't think I would re-raise on the river though. I'm thinking he has the case Ace and thinks he has you outkicked. I'm glad you called his 3-bet because there is a good chance we are best here and the pot is just big enough to justify.

I'd like to see what someone with more experience would say.

QTip

10-13-2005, 12:39 PM

So...everyone told you about PF. And not raising it in this instance made this hand much more difficult on every street.

Do you know why the flop bet is good? Ask why 3 betting the flop is a good idea.

10-13-2005, 12:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So...everyone told you about PF. And not raising it in this instance made this hand much more difficult on every street.

Do you know why the flop bet is good? Ask why 3 betting the flop is a good idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

O.K. why is 3-betting the flop a good idea

10-13-2005, 06:36 PM

:grunching

Raise preflop! Flop and turn are ok.
River: raise is bad, there are far too many hands that have you beaten {KQ, JJ, TT, AK, AJ, AT(s)}, these are also hands that villain would raise with preflop. Just call down instead.

Folding anywhere without good reads on what villain raises preflop is too tight.

lautzutao

10-13-2005, 06:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So...everyone told you about PF. And not raising it in this instance made this hand much more difficult on every street.

Do you know why the flop bet is good? Ask why 3 betting the flop is a good idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

O.K. why is 3-betting the flop a good idea

[/ QUOTE ]

Because if he caps we can c/c down and save a BB

10-13-2005, 06:43 PM

Raise this preflop here. If I get three bet, on this board I just c/c down, and I don't understand at all why people are saying bet/3 bet the flop. He either has us crushed or we have him crushed. I mean there is a WA/WB thread on the first page. Or do .05/.1 players just suck that bad?

EDIT: I guess people are saying that as played we should be three betting the flop. I still don't agree, I play it is WA/WB.

10-13-2005, 06:45 PM

raise pre-flop--this is a good hand!
3-bet the flop and call a cap. you have TP2K.
..here is where we may wonder if MP2 has a big set a strong draw, or has us dominated with AK. If you would have raised pf, and he 3-bet, you may consider that you are drawing dead here. A read on villain is important too--does he raise pf with A8? Is he aggressive with small pairs on a big-card board?
If you check/call on the turn, you should lead on the river, or check/fold.

Based on the action and no reads, you should probably be folding that 3-bet on the river. I dunno...

RiverDood

10-13-2005, 06:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hey everyone, i'm pretty new to the game and i was just wondering if i could get some input on my play in this hand. Should i have folded on the turn?

PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, MP2 raises, 5 folds, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.40 SB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets, MP2 raises, UTG folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.70 BB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls.

River: (7.70 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets, Hero raises, MP2 3-bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 13.70 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's focus on the river play. You got excited because the A improved your hand. But you didn't think about what the impact was on Villain's hand. This is an important concept when it comes to playing the river.

Go back in your mind to Villain raising the flop. Clearly he's not afraid of someone playing Ax. He thinks he's got a better hand. What could it be? There are eight possibilities:

--AJ and he has top two pair
--AT and he has decent two pair
--JT and he has bottom two pair
--KQ and he has the straight
-- JJ and he has trips
-- TT and he has trips
-- AK and he has the best possible pair/kicker
-- he's a maniac and is trying to buy the pot with an inferior hand. Unlikely but faintly possible. Let's assume this is the classic 10% possibility.

You're behind in almost all cases, but you have some outs -- mostly involving a K or a Q. It's worth calling the flop and calling down the turn and river.

By the time the flop action is done, you should realize that an A is not a card you really want to see. If he has trips, it gives him a full house. If he has a straight, you still don't catch up. If he has two pair, in most cases he upgrades to a full house. Even if he's playing AK, you don't catch up. Only if he has JT is an A the card that will win it for you.

So when an A comes at the river, check/call. Any more aggression than that is almost certainly giving him money.

In general, try to alert yourself to cases where cards that improve your hand DO NOT improve your chances of winning the pot. You're probably already alert to this on cards that pair you up but complete someone else's flush draw. Add these sorts of hands to the list.

Shillx

10-13-2005, 06:53 PM

That flop is just terrible. Fold it. Whoops thought it was 2 bets to you on the flop. Ugh I'm doing nothing but calling on that board and I would highly consider folding somewhere if he keeps betting.

Brad

I know nothing about .05/.10 but the concept behind going crazy on this board is just terrible. Maybe getting stoopid on this board is a good way to optimize earnings at this level, but if you want to get better you can't be bet/3betting this flop and expecting to drag it unless a king comes and bails you out.

lautzutao

10-13-2005, 06:58 PM

10-13-2005, 07:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That flop is just terrible. Fold it. Whoops thought it was 2 bets to you on the flop. Ugh I'm doing nothing but calling on that board and I would highly consider folding somewhere if he keeps betting.

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

Because with the PF Raise only thing he could have is AK, 2pair, or a set on this board?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think folding is bad, but I don't see how you guys don't view this as WA/WB.

Shillx

10-13-2005, 07:09 PM

I think folding is bad

We are getting < 3:1 to calldown here. Are we going to drag this thing 25% of the time????

Brad

This is an honest question that I don't have an answer to. It kinda sounds like a "WTF are you thinking" post but it isn't.

Catsailor

10-13-2005, 07:14 PM

Grunch
Raise pf,that will change the hand. He might be raising w KQ. You have a good hand. You're behind AT AJ KQ JJ TT. I call it 2Ao,4Ko,1 1/2Qo for 7 1/2o total. I might 3bet flop & see if he caps. Don't raise riv. You may be behind.

bozlax

10-13-2005, 07:34 PM

I hate the hand...it sucks.

That said, I agree with Brad. This is a classic, "you're effed no matter what," hand. And, as has been pointed out a few times, a preflop raise might've made all the difference.

QTip

10-13-2005, 08:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
That flop is just terrible. Fold it. Whoops thought it was 2 bets to you on the flop. Ugh I'm doing nothing but calling on that board and I would highly consider folding somewhere if he keeps betting.

Brad

I know nothing about .05/.10 but the concept behind going crazy on this board is just terrible. Maybe getting stoopid on this board is a good way to optimize earnings at this level, but if you want to get better you can't be bet/3betting this flop and expecting to drag it unless a king comes and bails you out.

[/ QUOTE ]

In these .5/.10 games, I believe a capped PF round is rather common. I've only seen a couple dozen hands though, so I'll leave it to the original poster to say what a PF raise generally means there.

This being said, we know nothing of the orignal raiser. Because of this fact, I liked betting the flop and giving the raiser a chance to face the field with 2.

However, I don't see going nuts on the flop with a 3 bet, so I was curious to hear bolax's thoughts on that as well. As mentioned here, our hand is not that robust given a "normal" EP raising range.

The river is a fine example here though of a seeming improvement to your hand that really didn't change much of anything.

bozlax

10-13-2005, 09:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
However, I don't see going nuts on the flop with a 3 bet, so I was curious to hear bolax's thoughts on that as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

My important point, IMO, was that if Hero had raised PF, been 3-bet, and then donked the flop, he'd have a much better idea where he was when Villan raised the flop. I'd still call down, but it's much uglier.

Against an unknown at .05/.10 without having shown any aggression previously, I don't think Hero can automatically put Villan on a hand range that beats him, here (I'd say he could have all the way down to 77, QJs, AT [hidden outs!], etc.), and I'd 3-bet the flop to find out exactly how much he loves his hand.

QTip

10-13-2005, 09:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
However, I don't see going nuts on the flop with a 3 bet, so I was curious to hear bolax's thoughts on that as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

My important point, IMO, was that if Hero had raised PF, been 3-bet, and then donked the flop, he'd have a much better idea where he was when Villan raised the flop. I'd still call down, but it's much uglier.

Against an unknown at .05/.10 without having shown any aggression previously, I don't think Hero can automatically put Villan on a hand range that beats him, here (I'd say he could have all the way down to 77, QJs, AT [hidden outs!], etc.), and I'd 3-bet the flop to find out exactly how much he loves his hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've never been a big fan of 3 betting for information, and here's a link (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=523282&page=&view=&sb =5&o=&vc=1) with some info on that.

I do think that after the flop raise from the PFRer, I would call it down without a king falling.

Edit: And in one of my previous replies I talked about allow the PFRer to face the "field" with 2. I was thinking we had four in this hand for some reason. Being 3 handed, it might not be a bad idea to just call this down anyway.

bozlax

10-13-2005, 09:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I've never been a big fan of 3 betting for information, and here's a link (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=523282&page=&view=&sb =5&o=&vc=1) with some info on that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree completely about raising purely for information. I think it's at least 50/50 that we're ahead on this flop, and I'm just not going to be convinced by a PFR and a flop raise that Hero's behind when he played his hand so weakly preflop. (This is why I noted in my first response that the only reason I'd call the raise is in order to raise a "safe" turn card.) If Villan caps the flop, then I have to revise my estimate. And, on this draw-heavy board, I'm happy to win this right here. I don't particularly care about the ace on the river, for all the noted reasons, and, actually, the card I'd LEAST like to see fall on the river is another queen.

What hand range do you put an unknown at .05/.10 on when he pfr's into two limpers, and then what do you think it is when he raises this flop.

QTip

10-13-2005, 09:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What hand range do you put an unknown at .05/.10 on when he pfr's into two limpers, and then what do you think it is when he raises this flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I honestly have no idea.

I really can't imagine raising a turn blank simply because I don't really know how to properly handle a reraise. You can't fold to 3 bet, and by the time I get to the river, the pot will be so big, I'll be inclined to call anyway. Now I just spewed chips all over the felt.

I'm not saying I have the "right" answer here, I'm at a loss in the hand, and all I can think about is getting to a showdown without spewing chips.

10-13-2005, 10:09 PM

There are only very specific circumstances that will make me limp in with a hand like that, and those are few and far between. Still, hard to say whether or not the villain has flopped a straight or if he is betting an ace with a bad kicker. Since you didn't raise PF, that made his decision to enter the pot a lot easier, which means there are that many more possible hands he could be playing.

10-13-2005, 10:29 PM

I played a bit at these levels and there are some tight tables but most are fairly loose. This guy could have anything down to pocket 6's. I have played $1/$2 tables where people like to raise UTG with J9s, so we are in the dark. Since we don't know much about him, we can't even assume that if we had raised and he had made a PF re-raise that it would have given us more information. Maybe he just likes to re-raise because he wants more money in the pot. Maybe he doesn't have a clue why you are raising, and at those limits, that is probable.

Still, we don't want to spew, because even the worst players catch good cards. In this case, because we didn't raise PF, and since we aren't quite sure we have the best hand, I would go with the c/c the turn and possibly lead the river, or maybe just c/c it.

bozlax

10-13-2005, 10:36 PM

Yeah, I really don't know either. I think the "right" line is either to be utterly passive or boderline-maniac aggro with this hand at this limit...I like to let the sails out, so to speak, so I'd probably go aggro.

10-14-2005, 12:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think folding is bad

We are getting < 3:1 to calldown here. Are we going to drag this thing 25% of the time????

Brad

This is an honest question that I don't have an answer to. It kinda sounds like a "WTF are you thinking" post but it isn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that b/c we limped in we can't give the PFR credit for having a premium hand enough to justify folding. If we had raised preflop and had been 3 bet this is about the worst board imaginable and I think I could probably fold. But IMO I think we are good enough and I treat it as WA/WB. I think it is close though, I was just befuddled b/c people were saying we should 3 bet the flop.

10-14-2005, 02:02 PM

Preflop raise/cap
Flop Bet/3bet

After that it plays too differently to continue to comment

You messed this up real bad preflop tho