Is this type of move part of your game? [Archive]

durron597

10-13-2005, 10:03 AM

So right now the part of my game I am working on is actively finding spots to pick off bluffs. When you do this, unless your opponent is "bluffing" allin, your hand doesn't matter.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB (t2710)
Hero (t1435)
UTG (t1445)
MP (t340)
CO (t3460)
Button (t4110)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
4 folds, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (t300) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
SB bets t450, Hero raises to t1285, SB folds.

Final Pot: t2035

schwza

10-13-2005, 10:07 AM

[ QUOTE ]
So right now the part of my game I am working on is actively finding spots to pick off bluffs.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't understand. pick off bluffs = call bluffs.

[ QUOTE ]
When you do this, unless your opponent is "bluffing" allin, your hand doesn't matter.

[/ QUOTE ]

huh?

Hornacek

10-13-2005, 10:08 AM

I think the 3x big blind bet on the flop is a little too rich for me... but when people bet out 1-2 big blind bets, and i'm fairly certain they're bluffing, its quite easy to raise here.

the most important thing I've noticed is that it has to be 4-5 people/bubble time.

Exitonly

10-13-2005, 10:13 AM

cha59

10-13-2005, 10:22 AM

[ QUOTE ]
So right now the part of my game I am working on is actively finding spots to pick off bluffs. When you do this, unless your opponent is "bluffing" allin, your hand doesn't matter.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB (t2710)
Hero (t1435)
UTG (t1445)
MP (t340)
CO (t3460)
Button (t4110)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
4 folds, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (t300) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
SB bets t450, Hero raises to t1285, SB folds.

Final Pot: t2035

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this against particular opponents who I think will bet with air and fold when you show strength.

I think my table image is another important factor when deciding whether or not to try this. I wouldnt do it "all the time" by any means.

pooh74

10-13-2005, 10:22 AM

Ive been picking off some bluffls lately (river especially) where I will raise (90% sure I am ahead) all-in after they bet, say 600. mY raise is 200-300 more and they actually fold! (2000+ in pot) this has happened 3-4 times in last couple of days and one thing about picking off a bluff is that if you think they are on one, your FE doesnt matter...they will fold.

NH

10-13-2005, 10:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
...the most important thing I've noticed is that it has to be 4-5 people/bubble time.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the most importan caveat for me, also. I usually reserve it as a response to smaller bets and only after they've done the same thing a few times. I like to bluff the flop instead of raise them off their hand pre-flop because a lot of players will call a 3-4xbb raise to see three cards.

unfrgvn

10-13-2005, 10:24 AM

You needed one more button, I know I should try this but lack the /images/graemlins/heart.gif !

I just hate the thought of getting picked of by a 9, but I think you read the hand real well. SB just completes, is he really going to lead out with trip nines? Especially for a overbet? I guess the real fear is will he call with a 6?

Nicholasp27

10-13-2005, 10:28 AM

nice

this is easier to do if u see that the opp makes cbets quite often

durron597

10-13-2005, 10:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So right now the part of my game I am working on is actively finding spots to pick off bluffs.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't understand. pick off bluffs = call bluffs.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he has Kx, he almost certainly cannot call my raise. So his bet is a bluff, and I pick it off by forcing him off his better hand.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When you do this, unless your opponent is "bluffing" allin, your hand doesn't matter.

[/ QUOTE ]

huh?

[/ QUOTE ]

My phrasing is unclear, I guess. Basically what I mean is, if your opponent bluffs allin, and you are fairly certain he has jack high, there's not much you can do (because he might be bluffing with king high or queen high). But if he just bets, you can raise with your jack high getting him to fold what is the better hand (which of course he doesn't know).

Nicholasp27

10-13-2005, 10:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So right now the part of my game I am working on is actively finding spots to pick off bluffs.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't understand. pick off bluffs = call bluffs.

[ QUOTE ]
When you do this, unless your opponent is "bluffing" allin, your hand doesn't matter.

[/ QUOTE ]

huh?

[/ QUOTE ]

he's not calling the bluff...he's raising the bluffer all-in...so he doesn't have to have the best showdown hand, he just has to be accurate that the guy was bluffing so will fold

he's saying that if ur opp bluffed all-in, then your hand matters, as it'll go to showdown

but if your opp didn't go all-in, then your hand doesn't matter cause he'll fold if he was bluffing...if he wasn't bluffing, he'll call and have u beat no matter your hand, unless you did have a hand, in which case you weren't bluffing

otctrader

10-13-2005, 10:37 AM

I'm glad this one worked out for you, but I'm not sure I trust someone who overbets that board in a $27 turbo out of the SB to lay down.

The average opponent is going to expect you to represent a 9 by smooth calling, and I definitely don't want to have this clown call me with K6o because he thinks I'm shoving 87 or making some sort of move.

durron597

10-13-2005, 10:46 AM

[ QUOTE ]

I just hate the thought of getting picked of by a 9,

[/ QUOTE ]

I was more afraid of this than him calling with ace high. He almost never has a 6 with that bet.

junkmail3

10-13-2005, 10:54 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I just hate the thought of getting picked of by a 9,

[/ QUOTE ]

I was more afraid of this than him calling with ace high. He almost never has a 6 with that bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just don't think there's any chance he has a 9. I don't think 'donks' play a 9 that way. I think they slowplay it.

So, if he doesn't have a 9, he can't call. So, your push is good. When I do this, I usually like to have a little something though, in the case that I do get called by ... A2o or some crap.

Nicholasp27

10-13-2005, 10:59 AM

at least he had runner-runner straight, runner-runner flush? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

pokerdirty

10-13-2005, 11:04 AM

this smells. why is this guy betting 450 into a 300 pot?

junkmail3

10-13-2005, 11:07 AM

[ QUOTE ]
this smells. why is this guy betting 450 into a 300 pot?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because he sucks and wants to 'buy' the pot and doesn't have a real hand that he thinks he can make a lot of money from.

fnord_too

10-13-2005, 11:10 AM

I am somewhere between the second and third option. I do this if I think villain gets out of line and I think he knows how to fold. Also, how I have been playing lately has a big impact on whether I make this move or not. In the posted hand it seems really natural (unless sb is really passive post flop). I do the move small blind did a lot, too, except with a T150-200 bet.

His overbet reaks of weakness, and he cannot easily justify playing a 9 (or even a 6) like this with some multi-level thinking argument because even if you know for sure he does not have a pair, there are still not a lot of hands you can play on with. The only time this is slick from his spot is if he has a 9 and knows you there is a good chance you will go for a resteal, but would otherwise probably just check behind.

MegaBet

10-13-2005, 11:11 AM

No way! I usually play people who actually realise when they're pot committed. Looks like you got lucky and made this play against a donk. Very unwise unless you have a super-solid read.

unfrgvn

10-13-2005, 11:21 AM

Why is the SB pot committed? He has almost 2100 left.

10-13-2005, 11:23 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
this smells. why is this guy betting 450 into a 300 pot?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because he sucks and wants to 'buy' the pot and doesn't have a real hand that he thinks he can make a lot of money from.

[/ QUOTE ]If this thinking is correct, shouldn't a good player sometimes overbet with a set?

durron597

10-13-2005, 11:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I am somewhere between the second and third option.

[/ QUOTE ]

What percent of the time do you have to succeed to do this with a truly air hand? Obviously when you get called you basically have zero pot equity. Any time your ICM $EV > 0? How much cushion do you want to give yourself? You can never be entirely sure of your opponents call range.

Nicholasp27

10-13-2005, 11:25 AM

only if he knows his opp is the kind of player that would see this overbet as weakness and try to steal the pot

otctrader

10-13-2005, 11:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If this thinking is correct, shouldn't a good player sometimes overbet with a set?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, it's a very smooth move that nails people in mid-high limit cash games since they love picking off weird overbets on relatively dry boards; but at a low-limit SNG you need to know you have a LAGgy playmaker behind you who can read a board, or you're losing value (that is if you have the 9).

murfnyc

10-13-2005, 11:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
this smells. why is this guy betting 450 into a 300 pot?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because he sucks and wants to 'buy' the pot and doesn't have a real hand that he thinks he can make a lot of money from.

[/ QUOTE ]If this thinking is correct, shouldn't a good player sometimes overbet with a set?

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe it was Lorinda that showed a bunch of examples where she moved all-in overbetting the pot, w/ monster hands (AA preflop, sets on the flop) and got called by extremely marginal hands thinking they were picking off bluffs, I have started to do this at the lower levels (22s. 33s) and it has been working with some success.

unfrgvn

10-13-2005, 11:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]

If this thinking is correct, shouldn't a good player sometimes overbet with a set?

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

only if he knows his opp is the kind of player that would see this overbet as weakness and try to steal the pot

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why regular games can be so much fun, you get into this third level thinking. Online at my limits I don't see people enough to know what they are thinking. You can get a sense of whether they are any good or not but rarely more than that.

durron597

10-13-2005, 11:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If this thinking is correct, shouldn't a good player sometimes overbet with a set?

[/ QUOTE ]

Linky (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=3242576&page=&view=&s b=5&o=&vc=1)

KingDan

10-13-2005, 11:58 AM

I have been doing this, but more often when they bet minimum or something small into the pot after completing the sb.

Bluff Daddy

10-13-2005, 12:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Ive been picking off some bluffls lately (river especially) where I will raise (90% sure I am ahead) all-in after they bet, say 600. mY raise is 200-300 more and they actually fold! (2000+ in pot) this has happened 3-4 times in last couple of days and one thing about picking off a bluff is that if you think they are on one, your FE doesnt matter...they will fold.

NH

[/ QUOTE ]

one of these was against me Im pretty sure, I called the flop and turn and raised the river less than all in trying to represent like I wanted a call and you pushed but I still had 400 or so behind so I folded and I ended up busting you later when you pushed in with 4 6 or something /images/graemlins/wink.gif

DVaut1

10-13-2005, 12:22 PM

I feel like, at the lower levels against donks, you're getting called too often with hands like 33 and AJ to make it +EV (although even then, it might be +EV, but marginally so). A donkey open-complete can mean anything, IMO - I'm not surprised if this play gets called by a donk AK-A10 or a mid/low pocket pair.

I don't hate the play, either - but I've seen one too many donks open-complete with AJ (thinking they're slowplaying it), only to call off their whole stack whether or not the flop hits their hand or not. I'd only use it if I had a some confidence in a read. For what it's worth, I couldn't agree more that the bettor there almost never has a 6.

If this is a $22-$55, I like the play more. So to answer your question, I would only use it against players I thought were mediocre; I'm scared of good, solid players overbet-trapping with a 9, and I'm scared of complete donks calling with crap/having a 9 and giving no thought to bet sizes --> relation to the pot.

schwza

10-13-2005, 12:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So right now the part of my game I am working on is actively finding spots to pick off bluffs.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't understand. pick off bluffs = call bluffs.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he has Kx, he almost certainly cannot call my raise. So his bet is a bluff, and I pick it off by forcing him off his better hand.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When you do this, unless your opponent is "bluffing" allin, your hand doesn't matter.

[/ QUOTE ]

huh?

[/ QUOTE ]

My phrasing is unclear, I guess. Basically what I mean is, if your opponent bluffs allin, and you are fairly certain he has jack high, there's not much you can do (because he might be bluffing with king high or queen high). But if he just bets, you can raise with your jack high getting him to fold what is the better hand (which of course he doesn't know).

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, apparently i don't know what "picking off a bluff" means. thought it was only calling and not re-bluffing as well.

nice link on strassa's overbet thread, btw.

schwza

10-13-2005, 12:27 PM

i do this pretty rarely, and only against guys that i've seen lead out a lot of flops like this in the past, and then either fold to a raise or check/fold the turn. it's incredibly satisfying, because i'm usually the one leading with air (especially into paired flops) and then having to fold .

10-13-2005, 12:47 PM

Another option is to do what you would probably actually do with a 9: call. This will make it very difficult for him to bluff at it again, plus will give you a chance to move all in on the turn, since some sort of draw will be present, making it look like you just want to take it down there, with your 9. Of course, if he bets again, then you'll probably regret it. This play is much better if the stacks are larger. One more bet would pot-commmit him, so it would be too late to raise/bluff on the turn.

fnord_too

10-13-2005, 12:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am somewhere between the second and third option.

[/ QUOTE ]

What percent of the time do you have to succeed to do this with a truly air hand? Obviously when you get called you basically have zero pot equity. Any time your ICM $EV > 0? How much cushion do you want to give yourself? You can never be entirely sure of your opponents call range.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I had to guess, I would say this push works 80-90% of the time I try it, which means I probably don't do it enough. If I have been folding a lot lately, I think I have to make this sort of move because 1. it should get more respect and 2. I need to fight back somewhere or I might as well wear a please rape me sign.

Opponents call range is the big thing, as you note. So many people don't think about how they will respond to a raise before they bet. I love it and hate it. I love seeing people making big mistakes, but I hate having such a poor idea of my FE.

Dr_Jeckyl_00

10-13-2005, 01:04 PM

No f'in way I do that. Let him have the pot. Might consider that if I had a strong Ax and a great read, but I am likely folding if my read is not there or not strong. That is FPS and it has cost me more than I would win when I tried it in the past.

microbet

10-13-2005, 01:08 PM

Hmm, you left off "I only do this when I'm drunk" so I voted never. Aren't there enough opportunities to semi-rebluff, that you don't have to re-post-oak-bluff?

sofere

10-13-2005, 01:26 PM

Isn't a post-oak bluff betting a small amount into a big pot to represent a huge hand that wants action? If so, how is this a re-post-oak bluff?

10-13-2005, 01:28 PM

I need to have seen villain take the line bet/fold on a paired flop before I do this. I suspect that if I were better at hand-reading, this wouldn't be necessary.

microbet

10-13-2005, 01:31 PM

You are right. I'm an idiot. Are you happy? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I thought post-oak bluff was total bluff with no hand or outs. I'll have to change that to just a re-bluff I guess.

MegaBet

10-13-2005, 01:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Why is the SB pot committed? He has almost 2100 left.

[/ QUOTE ]

He has 600 invested wih a little over 600 to call with 2 cards to come. The fact that he has 2100 left should HELP the decision to call as it won't cripple him. This is so obvious to me.

Scuba Chuck

10-13-2005, 01:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
the most important thing I've noticed is that it has to be 4-5 people/bubble time.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's a 2nd one, which is just as important, IMO. And that is villain's stack size. He can't be pot committed with his bet, or even near pot committed. You're not knocking him off a 6, which is probably what he has (if he's tied himself to the pot that is).

unfrgvn

10-13-2005, 02:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why is the SB pot committed? He has almost 2100 left.

[/ QUOTE ]

He has 600 invested wih a little over 600 to call with 2 cards to come. The fact that he has 2100 left should HELP the decision to call as it won't cripple him. This is so obvious to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, it's 835 to call to win 2035. He is getting good pot odds, but his hand is probably not that much better than ours. What hand is he just completing in the SB, provided he's not trapping, that he wants to get that involved with? Tough to call here with Q high, even getting 2.4-1.

Gramps

10-13-2005, 02:07 PM

In general, pushing over an overbet is probably not the place to make this play. You'll get a lot of "embarassed/fu calls" from hands that probably shouldn't be calling, but are a huge favorite against yours.

fnord_too

10-13-2005, 02:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I thought post-oak bluff was total bluff with no hand or outs. I'll have to change that to just a re-bluff I guess.

[/ QUOTE ]

NONONONONONONO!!! That's a stone bluff! Mike Sexton would be so disapointed /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

10-13-2005, 03:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If this is a $22-$55, I like the play more. So to answer your question, I would only use it against players I thought were mediocre; I'm scared of good, solid players overbet-trapping with a 9, and I'm scared of complete donks calling with crap/having a 9 and giving no thought to bet sizes --> relation to the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]It seems to me that this might be a situation where you want to have a little something so that rather than a re-bluff, you're actually making a semi-re-bluff. That way if you're a few levels of thinking above your opponent, you'll at least have some outs.

10-13-2005, 04:14 PM

I used to make those kind of plays all of the time. Until I started getting caught way too much. Now I only do it once in a while.

Deuce2High

10-13-2005, 04:18 PM

For sngs this is pretty bad.

Bigwig

10-13-2005, 04:37 PM

Perhaps this has already been mentioned, but:

1) I don't like pulling this bluff into a big stack. There are far too many players who will call you.

2) I don't like the bluff on a paired board. There is a psychological trigger in players that always seems to tell them that you don't have a pair if the board is paired. This is why I hesitate to continuation bet automatically with hands like AQ, AK, or KQ into paired flops.

schwza

10-13-2005, 04:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps this has already been mentioned, but:

1) I don't like pulling this bluff into a big stack. There are far too many players who will call you.

2) I don't like the bluff on a paired board. There is a psychological trigger in players that always seems to tell them that you don't have a pair if the board is paired. This is why I hesitate to continuation bet automatically with hands like AQ, AK, or KQ into paired flops.

[/ QUOTE ]

interesting. when i played 6max nl i stole very often on raggedy paired flops, especially from the blinds. it was a gold mine.

i will say it makes people a lot more willing to say "my 55 is the nuts."

durron597

10-13-2005, 06:18 PM

A lot of good responses in this thread. Too many to respond to. But I want to respond to this one-

[ QUOTE ]
I feel like, at the lower levels against donks, you're getting called too often with hands like 33 and AJ to make it +EV (although even then, it might be +EV, but marginally so). A donkey open-complete can mean anything, IMO - I'm not surprised if this play gets called by a donk AK-A10 or a mid/low pocket pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was a Stars $27. I feel like by level 5 a lot of the time you can have a read strong enough to at least have some idea whether a play like this would work. I had an idea of what the probability he was trapping me with a 9 - very small. Pocket pair - very small. 6 - possible from preflop, not possible from post flop. I really thought I was up against no pair here a huge (>90% of the time) against this opponent in this hand.

Not all opponents are created equal. Remember that, if you don't it will prevent you from using tools that work in some situations and not in others.

MegaBet

10-13-2005, 07:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I used to make those kind of plays all of the time. Until I started getting caught way too much. Now I only do it once in a while.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that "notes" feature is pretty useful /images/graemlins/grin.gif

curtains

10-13-2005, 07:24 PM

I have fear of overbets in situations like this... but in general I do such things often depending on the situation. I'd be more likely to do this against a bet of 300...450 is often the kind of bet that is saying "I like my hand and will call you, but would rather you fold".

10-13-2005, 07:28 PM

i love it, i prefer miniraising though.

MegaBet

10-13-2005, 07:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I have fear of overbets in situations like this... but in general I do such things often depending on the situation. I'd be more likely to do this against a bet of 300...450 is often the kind of bet that is saying "I like my hand and will call you, but would rather you fold".

[/ QUOTE ]

I was thinking along those exact lines.

DyessMan89

10-13-2005, 07:38 PM

Any play where you make an aggressive move based on a read is a good move. So yes, these types of moves are definitley in my arsenal.

ilya

10-13-2005, 07:41 PM

I will do this somewhat often with a hand that has some strong outs, even if it's only 1-4. With a hand that has no real strong outs, I make this play only rarely, usually only if I have a specific read on the villain.

durron597

10-13-2005, 08:05 PM

DVaut1

10-13-2005, 08:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I really thought I was up against no pair here a huge (>90% of the time) against this opponent in this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

How often do you think you're getting called by something like AK - A10. or even some broadway combinations? I don't think you're going to get called by something like Q10 much - but I've been surprised (in the past, when I've made similar moves) how often I've gotten called by hands like AJ or KQs - even though it's not a complete disaster to get called by such hands, I still hate it.

Regardless, if you had even a semi-solid read, then I like the play.

durron597

10-13-2005, 08:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]

How often do you think you're getting called by something like AK - A10.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really felt this opponent would have raised preflop with any of these hands. I've been thinking about this hand a lot recently, I think the likeliest hand he might have that might call me is 55.

durron597

10-13-2005, 10:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I used to make those kind of plays all of the time. Until I started getting caught way too much. Now I only do it once in a while.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why you have to pick your spots /images/graemlins/tongue.gif