TPTK turns into nut flush-- line check?

[Logik]

Line check on all streets-- villian is your typical fish, no specific reads but has not done anything noteworthy. Consider him your model 25NL player.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

UTG ($46.20)
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($38.30)</font>
<font color="#C00000">CO ($23.70)</font>
Button ($41.55)
SB ($21.20)
BB ($41.45)

Preflop: Hero is MP with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $0.75</font>, Hero calls $0.75, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $1.25</font>, Button calls $1.25, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG calls $0.50, Hero calls $0.50.

Flop: ($5.35) J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $2</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $4</font>, Button folds, UTG folds, Hero calls $2.

Turn: ($13.35) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Hero...?

If I check here since he raised I may allow him to induce a bluff. If I bet here it screams strength, but I might get a call from a paint-high flush.

Decisions, decisions.

[swolfe]

bet more on the flop.

on the turn, pretty much anything you do will tell him "i have the A/images/graemlins/club.gif". if you check, he's probably checking behind everything except maybe the K/images/graemlins/club.gif, so i'd prefer to bet out...maybe he has a set and will call you.

[kongo_totte]

You gotta bet the turn. You will not win a big pot here. Your only hopes is he has a set and will be willing to chase a boat. I bet close to full pot.

BTW, I fold pre-flop usually.

[swolfe]

[ QUOTE ]
BTW, I fold pre-flop usually.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, twice in fact

[djoyce003]

bet it and pray he has the king....he'll probably call down with that. If he doesn't have a club he's checking so you have to bet....if he has a big club or a set he might call....don't give him odds if he has a set....so i'd probably bet more than half pot.

[RiverFenix]

I dont mind pf calls at all. Bet more on flop and check turn to induce a bluff. value extraction for this hand is much harder oop

[kurto]

I don't mean to be rude, but...

[ QUOTE ]
villian is your typical fish.... Consider him your model 25NL player.


[/ QUOTE ]

and then:

[ QUOTE ]
UTG raises to $0.75, Hero calls $0.75 (with AJos out of position), CO raises to $1.25, Button calls $1.25, 2 folds, UTG calls $0.50, Hero calls $0.50 (hero now calls raise and a reraise oop with AJos).


[/ QUOTE ]

Now clear how that's not 'typical fish' or 'model $25NL' player. You don't think your hand is likely dominated? What are you hoping for exactly? Unless you hit a 2 pair, a straight or flush draw... in the face of 2 raisers... what do you think you're ahead of?

[miajag81]

Fold preflop, lead more on flop, reraise on flop

[thedecline19]

I dont mind the initial call of .75 if this is a typical 25nl player. Hes ahead of most 25nl maniacs pf raising range. His call of .75 justifies his calling of .50 more because now hes getting 6-1 if Im reading right. Granted, you might be dominated but im folding nothing that i felt compelled to call an early position raiser here getting 6-1.

[The_Bends]

Can't believe people are slaming the preflop call. Pot odds alone justify it. No way I'm folding AJ in position against an average NL25 player's 3xbb raise. When it comes back round to closing the betting for 50c more I'm not folding, what hands do you think the two villians have that have you at less than 15%? Only if one holds AA and you can't reason that from the action so far.

On the flop I'd bet $4/$5, as played I'd call the min raise and take the hand on. I did consider a reraise here which isn't a bad option. You're 45:55 against AA and 49:51 against an overpair with a club in it so even worst case is not a disaster. However since you probably have minimal fold equity a call is good.

Once you hit the flush bet it as strong as you can. If he's got an overpair without a club or air he may well let it go but thats life. If he's got an overpair with a high club you'll get good value.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont mind the initial call of .75 if this is a typical 25nl player. Hes ahead of most 25nl maniacs pf raising range. His call of .75 justifies his calling of .50 more because now hes getting 6-1 if Im reading right. Granted, you might be dominated but im folding nothing that i felt compelled to call an early position raiser here getting 6-1.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think there's a few bad things about this hand preflop... One its a little bit of an exxageration to say he has position. Matter of fact, he's stuck inbetween an UTG preflop raiser and a reraiser who has position on him. If there was a more detailed read on the 2 players (ie... they're raise with ANY ace and reraise with any ace)... then perhaps its not as bad. But if the flop comes A53... how much of your stack are you willing to put on a jack kicker?

Regarding potodds... he might have them because the reraiser is too dumb to make a real raise. But that still doesn't improve his condition... again, without a perfect flop (AJx or xJJ or 10-Q-K), how comfortable is he going to be with this hand?

If he was on the button, it might be a little better because he can see how the others act.

I think this hand is a bad example because its one of the rare flops where he's found himself with a draw to the nutflush. The other 99% of the time when he doesn't flop nutflush draw, straight, 2 pair or 3 of a kind... what's he going to do with his hand?

Last note... if he does decide to play AJ against the PFR, who he calls a donk, then I'd prefer if he had reraised. He'd have had a better chance of getting it heads up and might be able to represent a stronger hand postflop.

[teamdonkey]

with $4.85 in the pot, only $0.50 to call and you're closing the action, you're really folding here?

The initial call is questionable, but a fold the second time around is horrible IMO.

[kurto]

I agree that having made the initial call, he can't very well fold for an additional $.50. But that logic also gets people into trouble... "throwing good money after bad." Because of the initial weak call, he's now putting more money into the pot with a relatively weak hand. He's now throwing more money with a hand that's difficult to play postflop. Furthermore, there's too many flops that will entice the player to continue to put more money in without any reason to believe he has the best hand.

I think the player has to ask himself... what is he going to do with this hand if the flop comes A75 and the PFR bets the pot? Is he going to put more money hoping his Jack kicker is good? What if he calls and the reraiser then reraises?

I have definitely played hands like AJ but only when I had notes on a player when I had specifically seen him play any ace strongly. (the kind of people who will lose their stack with top pair, 2 kicker.... though rarely do the players who'll lose their stack with A2 raise PF and they certainly don't reraise with it.) If I limped into a pot with AJ and I know I'm going heads up against one of these 'top pair no kicker fish', then I have no problem playing my AJ strongly. But I don't normally want to be contesting a hand with AJ between a raiser and a reraiser, especially with shortstacks . You can usually be pretty certain you're going to war against 2 people, 1 of which more then likely has your hand dominated.

If he's going to play a hand in this situation, I'd rathar do it with a pocket pair or small-medium suited connectors where the flop is more likely to hit me then to hit my opponents. Then its easier fit or fold.

[Logik]

As teamdonkey said I believe the pot odds justify a call, even if we're only putting in more money on an "ideal" flop that's J-high, or in this case perfectly ideal of TPTK + nut flush draw. I really should have re-raised the flop, but the fact of the matter is the pot odds are way too good to find a fold here. If I didn't close the action, and I had to call 2 bets cold, I fold this.