Trying to get better at this

[Godfather80]

After about 50 hands with Villain, all I know about him is that he's loose preflop.

PokerRoom No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

CO ($22.50)
Hero ($37.55)
SB ($7.50)
BB ($11.15)
Villain ($18.20)
UTG+1 ($58.25)
MP1 ($25)
MP2 ($10)

Preflop: Hero is dealt Q/images/graemlins/heart.gifQ/images/graemlins/diamond.gif MP2 posts a blind of $0.25.
Villain calls $0.25, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 (poster) checks, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333"> Hero raises to $1.75</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Villain calls $1.50, MP2 folds.

Flop: ($4.15) A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Villain checks, <font color="#CC3333"> Hero bets $2.5</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $6</font>, Hero ?

Comments on all streets appreciated

Fold. I don't want to get tied into a big pot here to see he called with A3o or similar junk.

[crosse91]

preflop is fine, flop bet is a little weak, but not horrible (at least you made it) and folding here is good.

If your read of "loose preflop" means he might have called your preflop raise with a weak ace then I would dump the queens and move on.

[centja1]

i don't particularly care for the 7x raise pre-flop either. getting action for this raise is nice with Queens, but it present some difficult decisions if an A or K falls on the flop. you'll also take down the pot without a caller a significant percentage of the time, which is a disappointment.

5x is big enough here, in my opinion, although I'd prefer 4x. You get the benefit of keeping the pot small until you see the flop, but you still encourage a little action for your queens.

Him limping and then calling and then check raising has to be A-x, 55 or 66. Don't let the mistake he made pre-flop turn into a good decision by paying him off.

[Riposte]

Bet like $4 on the flop, fold to the raise.

[Godfather80]

[ QUOTE ]
Bet like $4 on the flop, fold to the raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Riposte, do you find, with loose players at 25NL at least, that a full pot bet is necessary in this situation? It would be one thing if these players would get aggressive if they sensed weakness, but they don't get aggressive unless they have a hand (and sometimes not even then). I no longer see the point in making 3/4-full sized pot bets on flops like these. 1/2-2/3 seems to do the same job and save me BBs.

[Riposte]

Yeah it doesn't really matter probably. Just make sure you're making the same size bet every time.

[Godfather80]

[ QUOTE ]
i don't particularly care for the 7x raise pre-flop either. getting action for this raise is nice with Queens, but it present some difficult decisions if an A or K falls on the flop. you'll also take down the pot without a caller a significant percentage of the time, which is a disappointment.

5x is big enough here, in my opinion, although I'd prefer 4x. You get the benefit of keeping the pot small until you see the flop, but you still encourage a little action for your queens.

Him limping and then calling and then check raising has to be A-x, 55 or 66. Don't let the mistake he made pre-flop turn into a good decision by paying him off.

[/ QUOTE ]

The point of the preflop raise is to make loose callers make large mistakes if they choose to call with Ax or Kx. I was confident that nobody was slowplaying a monster here, so I wasn't worried about the checkraise. Whether or not an A or K falls on the flop is beyond my control. My only job at these levels, as I see it, is to force my opponents to make the biggests mistakes they are willing to make on any street.

[mudbuddha]

i agree with you, 3/4 pot and full pot do pretty much the same work but htey save 1/4 the pot everytime.. and that adds

but.. at a table thats loose preflop..
raise more..!!! they will call with their Ax.. and most of the time they will miss so another small edge that you can make a little more money..

[Godfather80]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah it doesn't really matter probably. Just make sure you're making the same size bet every time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? Honestly, I don't think they notice one way or the other. Any bet over $1 seems to mean the same to them. But, you're right. Keeping it between 2/3 and pot sized is important so that if they call they are still making a mistake.

[Godfather80]

[ QUOTE ]
i agree with you, 3/4 pot and full pot do pretty much the same work but htey save 1/4 the pot everytime.. and that adds

but.. at a table thats loose preflop..
raise more..!!! they will call with their Ax.. and most of the time they will miss so another small edge that you can make a little more money..

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I'm experimenting with. I'm trying to figure out the maximum that any given opponent will individually pay with a mediocre hand. Every little BB helps, whether won or saved.

[mudbuddha]

i dont agree with the same size bet mantra..
you have to adjust the odds to maximize your odds, no?
Why bet half pot size when someones on a flush draw when you think they will probably call a potsize bet (read dependent i guess)

[Riposte]

Are you talking about trying to save money by varying your betting patterns by betting small when you're weak and big when you're strong?

[mudbuddha]

i think you have to fold to his raise there unless there is a previous read where he raised with junk.. but.. unless there is that read. then I don't see why you can't believe him..

however.. on the size of bets. it really is determined by the flow of the table.. if everyone is calling flops then raise more. bet more. if everyone is just playing weak tight then you gotta play your monsters a little less aggressive.

[Riposte]

[ QUOTE ]
i dont agree with the same size bet mantra..
you have to adjust the odds to maximize your odds, no?
Why bet half pot size when someones on a flush draw when you think they will probably call a potsize bet (read dependent i guess)

[/ QUOTE ]


I'm talking about the flop, but yeah you're right.

[mudbuddha]

not neccesssarily.. if you steal with smaller bets then when you have monsters it will disguise your bets tooo

[Riposte]

I just feel better about leaving absolutely no detectable pattern to my betting.

[centja1]

If he'll call the 7x raise, then you should absolutely raise that amount. I thought it was a little on the high side and basically announcing that "I have a large, but vulnerable, pair and don't want very many of you donkeys coming along for the ride".

This is all well and good since you seem to be capable of laying this down once you get check-raised on the flop.

But, I think you'll decrease the overall variance of these types of hands if you raise slightly less pre-flop.

Since you're probably not going to get paid off by very many hands and you're the one offering the implied odds, you have the choice of keeping the pot small or playing a large pot.

Playing large pots or small pots is a matter of personal taste since you're the one who has to endure whatever variance you create. But I like to decide on the flop whether I'm going to play a big pot or fold to agression in a small one. Either way, I'm the one deciding when the pot gets big, so I'd like to know that I've retained my edge before pumping a lot of bets in.

[wdeadwyler]

I DO think you save money when betting weak when weak and big when strong. THese guys dont notice these things and WONT take advantage of it.

[mudbuddha]

big pot small pots may be personal preference
but arent smaller pots easier to outplay opponents on?

[centja1]

small pots are easier to outplay opponents in than large pots, which I suppose was somewhat implied in my argument.

the main crux of my point with queens is that there are many flops where someone who gives you a lot of action may have you badly beaten or not much more than a coinflip with two cards to come.

creating a smaller pot before the flop, in my opinion, gives you more latitude in deciding how to play after re-evaluating where you stand in the hand.