Reporting collusion on Empire

[TheNoodleMan]

I sent support this email:

The following is a blatant example of collusion. I don't care if these
players are from different states or if they have never played together
before. Asking another player if they are calling is cheating. This could
not be more clear cut. If I do not recieve first place money for this
tournement, I will have no choice but to take my play (along with the
thousands in rake that I pay) elsewhere.
-XXXXX

***** Hand History for Game XXXXXXXXXXX *****
NL Texas Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee Trny:XXXXXXX Level:8
Blinds(200/400) -
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 3
Seat 5: rayjr4 ( $2025 )
Seat 10: zzz_no_more ( $1655 )
Seat 1: <font color="red"> HERO </font> ( $4320 )
Trny:16088106 Level:8
Blinds(200/400)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to <font color="red"> HERO </font> [ 9c Kc ]
<font color="red"> HERO </font> is all-In [4320]
&gt;You have options at Table 12772 Table!.
&gt;You have options at Table 12772 Table!.
rayjr4: zzz u calling
&gt;You have options at Table 11105 Table!.
zzz_no_more: sure
rayjr4: ok
rayjr4 is all-In [1825]
&gt;You have options at Table 11105 Table!.
zzz_no_more is all-In [1255]
** Dealing Flop ** [ 3h, 4d, 5d ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 7c ]
** Dealing River ** [ 3s ]
<font color="red"> HERO </font> shows [ 9c, Kc ] a pair of threes.
rayjr4 shows [ 9d, Ad ] a pair of threes.
zzz_no_more shows [ Ah, 7d ] two pairs, sevens and threes.
<font color="red"> HERO </font> wins 2295 chips from side pot #2 with a pair of threes.
rayjr4 wins 740 chips from side pot #1 with a pair of threes with ace
kicker.
zzz_no_more wins 4965 chips from the main pot

empire response:
<font color="blue">Dear XXXXX,

Thank you for contacting us.

With reference to your mail we have registered a complaint for Inconsistent game play between * rayjr4* and *zzz_no_more*.

Kindly give us 24-48 hours to investigate on this. We will get back to you with our investigation summary through an email.

Contact us anytime, we are available around the clock to assist you with your account related questions and suggestions.

Best Regards,

David Roberts
Investigations Team,
alerts@EmpirePoker.com
www.EmpirePoker.com (http://www.EmpirePoker.com) </font>

I'm sick of this kind of crap. I want justice.

[microbet]

Colluding sucks. They suck at colluding.

[TheNoodleMan]

[ QUOTE ]
Colluding sucks. They suck at colluding.

[/ QUOTE ]
thanks for the laugh micro. Sadly thats more than I will likely get out of empire.

[Swax]

Please keep us up to date on this, as I've dealt with this kinda [censored] a lot. I'm really curious to hear how it goes.

Thanks!

[pergesu]

Don't take this as a knock on you at all, because I agree that what happened here was wrong and that you should report it.

Had you won the hand, would you have thought twice about reporting it? I'd probably be like, "Man those guys are pricks...but I won, it's all good."

Again, not a knock on you, I'm just curious if your mentality would be quite different had you won the hand.

[caretaker1]

Out of curiousity, if one player tells another to call a third player's all-in raise (I periodically see this on the bubble in the SNG's), is that reportable collusion?

"God Damnit, I won't holla!"

[TheNoodleMan]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't take this as a knock on you at all, because I agree that what happened here was wrong and that you should report it.

Had you won the hand, would you have thought twice about reporting it? I'd probably be like, "Man those guys are pricks...but I won, it's all good."

Again, not a knock on you, I'm just curious if your mentality would be quite different had you won the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
If the flop came K /images/graemlins/spade.gif K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif K /images/graemlins/heart.gif I would still report it. It is not about the money. This type of collusion is treated far too casually.

[TheNoodleMan]

[ QUOTE ]
Out of curiousity, if one player tells another to call a third player's all-in raise (I periodically see this on the bubble in the SNG's), is that reportable collusion?

"God Damnit, I won't holla!"

[/ QUOTE ]
I think the situation that you describe is poor ettiqutte, but not quite up to collusion, IMO.

[Karak567]

I always tell idiots when they do this that it is wrong. Then they tell me I am full of [censored] and then I report them. I usually get an email back telling me they lost their chat or something.

Good job reporting them; they're ass holes. I doubt you'll get money out of empire. The most that'll come is they'll get their chat revoked.

[ QUOTE ]
If I do not recieve first place money for this tournement [sic], I will have no choice but to take my play (along with the thousands in rake that I pay) elsewhere.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If the flop came K /images/graemlins/spade.gif K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif K /images/graemlins/heart.gif I would still report it. It is not about the money.

[/ QUOTE ]Which is it?

[TheNoodleMan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If I do not recieve first place money for this tournement [sic], I will have no choice but to take my play (along with the thousands in rake that I pay) elsewhere.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If the flop came K /images/graemlins/spade.gif K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif K /images/graemlins/heart.gif I would still report it. It is not about the money.

[/ QUOTE ]Which is it?

[/ QUOTE ]
Its the principal. Taking money away from colluders and returning it to effected players is the right thing to do.
<font color="white"> Or were you just trying to be clever? No one here is impressed by your insightful jab.</font>

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If I do not recieve first place money for this tournement [sic], I will have no choice but to take my play (along with the thousands in rake that I pay) elsewhere.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If the flop came K /images/graemlins/spade.gif K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif K /images/graemlins/heart.gif I would still report it. It is not about the money.

[/ QUOTE ]Which is it?

[/ QUOTE ]
Its the principal. Taking money away from colluders and returning it to effected players is the right thing to do.
<font color="white"> Or were you just trying to be clever? No one here is impressed by your insightful jab.</font>

[/ QUOTE ]So then, it is about the money.

[beset7]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If I do not recieve first place money for this tournement [sic], I will have no choice but to take my play (along with the thousands in rake that I pay) elsewhere.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If the flop came K /images/graemlins/spade.gif K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif K /images/graemlins/heart.gif I would still report it. It is not about the money.

[/ QUOTE ]Which is it?

[/ QUOTE ]
Its the principal. Taking money away from colluders and returning it to effected players is the right thing to do.
<font color="white"> Or were you just trying to be clever? No one here is impressed by your insightful jab.</font>

[/ QUOTE ]So then, it is about the money.

[/ QUOTE ]

poker is money. getting cheated at poker usually entails losing money. whats your point.

[lorinda]

[ QUOTE ]
Had you won the hand, would you have thought twice about reporting it? I'd probably be like, "Man those guys are pricks...but I won, it's all good."

[/ QUOTE ]

Reporting these when you won is actually more effective.

Today's idiot colluders might be tomorrow's good colluders.

Lori

[theben]

those jerks

[TheNoodleMan]

Well, I got the standard form response:

Dear XXXXX,

Thank you for bringing this to our notice. We do see that the conversation between these players was indeed inappropriate. Hence we have conducted a detailed investigation on both the accounts to check for any possible team play between them.

We have looked into all the necessary aspects of their history in our card room and we would like to share with you these important facts that helped us arrive at a conclusion:

1- Both these players are coming from DIFFERENT STATES in USA.

2- This is the ONLY TOURNAMENT where they have shared tables, in their entire association with this card room.

3- We have gone through all the game records of this tournament and confirm that there is no sign of collusion involved. Also note that we have focused not only on the hands in which the player has been involved, but also all the hands in which they have been together by themselves.

However, we do agree that the table conversation that transpired between these players is inappropriate to say the least. As a result of this report and consequent investigation, we have now

1) Blocked the chatting facilities of the players.
2) Barred both the players from sharing the same tables in this card room.
3) Flagged their accounts to periodically review the activities in these accounts.
4) Issued stern warnings to both the players, informing them about possible sterner actions in case such activities are repeated in their account.

We thank you for getting this to our notice, as this is in keeping with our priority of keeping up the integrity of this card room. It indeed is heartening to have players like you in this card room who care about the integrity of our games.

Contact us anytime, we are available around the clock to assist you with your account related questions and suggestions.

Sincerely,

Vishnu Kumar
Investigations Team
alerts@EmpirePoker.com

<font color="blue">Obviously, this is exactly what I expected since I stated in my email that I don't care if they live in different states or if the have never played together before. For some reason, party and co. seem to think that all cheating is premeditated. These players may not have come in to the game looking to cheat (particularly the guy who answered the question) but that doesn't mean that it should go vitually unpunished. What is it going to take to get them to start doing something about these kinds of situations?</font>

[axeshigh]

There's no point. I reported that kind of stuff (are you calling? what did you fold? check it down? etc.) about 5 times, and I just got tired of them doing absolutely nothing about it. I think the only reason you got an email back is because you threatened to leave because I only got an email once for all my complaints. Long live idiots.

[brimstone1]

I think if they did indeed do:

[ QUOTE ]

1) Blocked the chatting facilities of the players.
2) Barred both the players from sharing the same tables in this card room.
3) Flagged their accounts to periodically review the activities in these accounts.
4) Issued stern warnings to both the players, informing them about possible sterner actions in case such activities are repeated in their account.


[/ QUOTE ]

Then the colluders have been punished.

I'm not exactly sure what you want them to do?

Freeze their accounts?

I report this kind of stuff all the time as well.

What I would like PartyGaming to do is to disable chat while a player is all-in. That would prevent 95% of these incidents.

They always say that they will forward my suggestion to management, and nothing gets done about it though.

Maybe if everyone on the forums started emailing them...

[suited_ace]

OK, just out of curiosity: what would happen if the exact same thing happened in a B&amp;M and you called the floor right after the player made his comments?

[Nicok7]

That s a very smart question actually!

Never had this happen in a B&amp;M so I don't know, but I guess their chat would be banned! (the tape the mouth together) /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Hendricks433]

No one would ever do this in B&amp;M? Just accept it and move on. Colluding doesnt seem to happen enough to care much anyway. If you play enough its one tourney and you had a good chance at busting anyway.

[TheNoodleMan]

[ QUOTE ]
OK, just out of curiosity: what would happen if the exact same thing happened in a B&amp;M and you called the floor right after the player made his comments?

[/ QUOTE ]
I would expect that the floor would rule the the players hand dead after he asked the player yet to act what his action would be.

My point is that the OP first said that if he did not receive money he would take his business elsewhere and then turned around and said it wasn't about the money. That seems contraditory to me.

I don't have a problem with the monetary remedy, but I think it is hypocritical to demand a monetary remedy and then say it isn't about the money.

[TheNoodleMan]

It isn't about the money. What is about is making sure that this type of thing isn't allowed to continue. The only way to effectively discourage this is to take winnings away from offending players. Banning chat is nice, but it doesn't have near the same effect. I have reported plenty of players for this type of offense but it isn't helping the integrity of the games to allow everyone a free chance blatantly break a rule.
<font color="white">and you still aren't impressing anyone </font>

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="white">and you still aren't impressing anyone </font>

[/ QUOTE ] /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]
The only way to effectively discourage this is to take winnings away from offending players. Banning chat is nice, but it doesn't have near the same effect.

[/ QUOTE ]It does for these guys. Neither is going to have any effect on others unless the sanctions are pulicized. If they are publicized, either will likely have a deterrent effect.

I agree with you: neither of these guys should be allowed to benefit from their comments. Since an administrator can't be called to the table at the time of the incident (to declare their hands dead) the results from the moment of the comments on should be considered invalid. How to proceed from there, I'm not sure.

[MegaBet]

I've reported this many times and nothing ever gets done.

[Salva135]

PokerStars disables chat when a player is all-in... start playing there instead...