Ireland

Ok... so, maybe I am stupid. Several posters have dismissed my analogy between Septamber 11th and the decades of IRA and INLA atttacks on mainland UK. Why?


BTW... I actually am very sympathetic of the aims of Republicism in Ireland. I only hate the way they have gone about achieving these aims.


Also, the peace process we are currently seeing proves absolutely that political and legal means are an effective way of dealing with terrorism.


Keith

because the British have raped and murdered an pillaged Ireland for centuries. They still militarily occupy the North,

I keep thinking that Bush will target the IRA one day soon as well.

"Ok... so, maybe I am stupid. Several posters have dismissed my analogy between Septamber 11th and the decades of IRA and INLA atttacks on mainland UK. Why?"


I think that England should go all out and arrest, capture, demolish the IRA--whatever it takes, as long as the IRA remains committed to practicing terrorism--even if a few innocents tragically catch a few stray bullets. Terrorism must be stopped.


"BTW... I actually am very sympathetic of the aims of Republicism in Ireland. I only hate the way they have gone about achieving these aims."


That's exactly it...it's the means terrorists choose to employ that I hate and cannot sympathize with, no matter what. Targeting innocent families is simply wrong and allowing these types of practices to continue has set a dangerous precedent.


"Also, the peace process we are currently seeing proves absolutely that political and legal means are an effective way of dealing with terrorism."


Well, Keith, here I think you are making a leap of logic which is not warranted. Just because a peace process works in one instance does not mean it will work in all instances or elsewhere in the world. For example, the IRA and Engish governments actually have a lot more in common with each other than do the USA and the Islamic extremists. The Catholics and Protestants are of the same country and background, albeit with significant differences and problems. The USA and the Islamic militants are truly worlds apart in many ways, geographically, historically, and ideologically. That's not to say that a peace process couldn't possibly work, but rather that just because it may work with terrorists in England doesn't necessarily mean it will work in the Middle East. Of course it is worth trying for. I just think we have to draw the line when we are attacked on a massive scale. Further I think the whole world should really draw the line against terrorism.

"BTW... I actually am very sympathetic of the aims of Republicism in Ireland. I only hate the way they have gone about achieving these aims."


Why are you sympathetic with at aims of a bunch of religious zealots?


"Also, the peace process we are currently seeing proves absolutely that political and legal means are an effective way of dealing with terrorism."


How many people have died since the IRA took up arms? how can you call your peace process successful. I don't think its been successful at all. I mean the IRA has been terrorizing the Brits for god know how many years. Nothing successful about it.

Boris,


You need to read some Irish history. 99% of people who want to return the counties to Ireland are not religious zealots. They are people who believe a terrible injustice was done when England took that land and systematically drove out the Catholics and gave their land to Protestants from elsewhere in the UK. Certainly there are zealots on both sides but it is my firm belief, as an Irish American and historian, that there are many good reasons for these counties to be returned. I also think they will be in my lifetime.


KJS

(who's Catholic relatives still live in a Northern County, don't go to church and want to die in their own homes in a united Ireland)

M,


Bloody Sunday's anniversary is coming up here soon. Perhaps you should read some articles on it. It might help you understand why some people (like me) see very little moral difference between those who murder for states and those who murder for political organizations.


KJS

Well, I see STOPPING those who murder for political organizations as a priority---with as little collateral damage as possible of course. If stopping them involves some taking of life I don't think you can automatically call that "murder" any more than you could call killing a knife-wielding crackhead who is attacking you "murder"---it's self-defense, and stopping terrorists isn't murder, it's defense of self and others. As for Bloody Sunday I know nothing about it--maybe some bounds were wrongly overstepped. Anyway STOPPING murderers is not itself murder.


Ask yourself, in these types of scenarios, who is the aggressor? It usually means quite a bit.

KJS,


Perhaps Ireland should be returned to the Irish...I don't know...and certainly the Irish have suffered oppression throughout much of history at the hands of the English...BUT that doesn't make terrorism right or a viable means of fighting. If they want a war because they can't arrive at a political solution, then that's one thing...but attacking innocent families on vacation and things like that is terrorism, plain and simple, and should not be tolerated anywhere in the world. The targets terrorists choose are MISPLACED and it's simply wrong.

"Maybe some bounds were overstepped."


Noxious understatement, to say the least. Spend, oh, 1.5 minutes of your life and look it up. Now imagine it happening in your country, perpetrated by an occupying enemy (think, oh, USSR back when it mattered). And think what you would do, when your son and daughter were shot in the back.


The troubles have nothing to do with religion.

From CAIN web service:


Sunday 30 January 1972


"'Bloody Sunday' refers to the shooting dead by the British Army of 13 civilans (and the wounding of another 14 people, one of whom later died) during a Civil Rights march in Derry. The Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association (NICRA) march against internment was meant to start at 2.00pm from the Creggan. The march left late (2.50pm approximately) from Central Drive in the Creggan Estate and took an indirect route towards the Bogside area of the city. People joined the march along its entire route. At approximately 3.25pm the march passed the 'Bogside Inn' and turned up Westland Street before going down William Street. Estimates of the number of marchers at this point vary. Some observers put the number as high as 20,000 whereas the Widgery Report estimated the number at between 3,000 and 5,000. Around 3.45pm most of the marchers followed the organisers instructions and turned right into Rossville Street to hold a meeting at 'Free Derry Corner'. However a section of the crowd continued along William Street to the British Army barricade. A riot developed. (Confrontations between the Catholic youth of Derry and the British Army had become a common feature of life in the city and many observers reported that the rioting was not particularly intense.)

At approximately 3.55pm, away from the riot and also out of sight of the meeting, soldiers (believed to be a machine-gun platoon of Paratroopers) in a derelict building in William Street opened fire (shooting 5 rounds) and injured Damien Donaghy (15) and John Johnston (59). Both were treated for injuries and were taken to hospital (Johnston died on 16 June 1972).


Also around this time (about 3.55pm) as the riot in William Street was breaking up, Paratroopers requested permission to begin an arrest operation. By about 4.05pm most people had moved to 'Free Derry Corner' to attend the meeting.

4.07pm (approximately) An order was given for a 'sub unit' (Support Company) of the 1st Battalion Parachute Regiment to move into William Street to begin an arrest operation directed at any remaining rioters. The order authorising the arrest operation specifically stated that the soldiers were "not to conduct running battle down Rossville Street" (Official Brigade Log). The soldiers of Support Company were under the command of Ted Loden, then a Major in the Parachute Regiment (and were the only soldiers to fire at the crowd from street level).

At approximately 4.10pm soldiers of the Support Company of the 1st Battalion Parachute Regiment began to open fire on people in the area of Rossville Street Flats. By about 4.40pm the shooting ended with 13 people dead and a further 14 injured from gunshots. The shooting took place in four main places: the car park (courtyard) of Rossville Flats; the forecourt of Rossville Flats (between the Flats and Joseph Place); at the rubble and wire barricade on Rossville Street (between Rossville Flats and Glenfada Park); and in the area around Glenfada Park (between Glenfada Park and Abbey Park). According to British Army evidence 21 soldiers fired their weapons on 'Bloody Sunday' and shot 108 rounds in total."


KJS

Sounds awful, KJS. Kent State in this country was pretty bad too. I don't think either event, however, gives moral or other license to terrorists to begin deadly attacks of their own upon other uninvolved civilians--period.

Neither do I.


KJS

Here's a link to an article from the Christian Science Monitor.

yes political and legal means do work but thats only when you have time to use them, as in sporatic terrorism. but when you fear that large scale events are coming you may not have the luxury to wait and be diplomatic.

in any event, targeting people not associated with your beef is wrong and only hurts all efforts for change.