Controlling Tilt Online - Adjusting?

[Max Weinberg]

I've only been playing seriously for a few months now, solely online, and my major problem is how to not go on tilt. When I can keep a level head I can post steady gains throughout my session, even taking a bad beat with no real shock to the system. When these start to pile up, though, I start to lose my mind - and literally piss my money away before I can stop myself.

I revert into defensive check-call mode or super-agressive maniac mode and just dig myself deeper into tilt and piss my roll away. Do I just have to realize it and get up and walk away? Discipline on card selection - check. Discipline on emotions, especially online - a definite no check. I knew I should have walked away after my first stupid mistake, but I just couldn't. Does anyone have some help for how to get this under control?

On a similar note I think some of this comes from the differences between what I'm thinking about the hand and what the rest of the table is thinking. Like some things that I mean, they're basically only check-calling, so they shouldn't be that hard right? I've read HPFAP many times over and I just noticed something today about what Sklansky says about these loose games. Don't press your edge immediately, wait until the later streets to punish them, because your edge might not be there. They seem to be pathologically driven to suck out on you, and in the long run, that's probably a very good thing, but it adds into terrible swings when they river their Q6 two-pair to your AQ. How are people playing these loose low limit games when you can't really raise to thin the field in most cases? More suited connectors?

Thanks for any help and sorry this was the size of a novel.

[pufferfish]

Hi Max,

I think, at least on some sites, the micro’s are very tough. You didn’t say what limit you play. If it’s fairly low I would like to suggest the penny games (1/2) at UB. No joke, no insult intended. I think they are a great place to start.

If you want to play at a higher limit and it is affordable for you, I would start at $2/$4 at a site like UB or Paradise (no promo here, just the sites I play most often). Maybe I’m wrong, but in many ways, I think they are easier than the micro’s.

TC,
pf

[bernie]

"Do I just have to realize it and get up and walk away?"

yes, why would you stay if you realize this?

read HPFAP again. particularly past page 150. great loose games section. sounds like you have a good start.

tailor your starting hands to the texture of the table.

b

[bernie]

hey...im diggin the weenie limit right now. hahaha

it's too funny. PENNIES!!!

almost ready to jump up a limit. if ya wanna learn to play loose games, id stay low on the money. it's cheaper to learn.

it's also realzing after getting pummelled today at the live game. only dragged 3 pots the whole time. wow, pinch me!

whoops...gotta get back to my game. gotta charge these chasers to draw again.

have fun

b

[Max Weinberg]

"yes, why would you stay if you realize this?"

I'm not sure exactly why I stay, it's just too much emotion I guess. Sometimes it will be something like "man, I just dropped $40 on this guy," and I start to almost get this demented revenge factor. That, of course, just drives me deeper into stupid plays.

I need to figure out a way to distance myself from the game a bit. Is there anything that anybody's found that works to not take the beat personally? Is it just adjusting your mindset, training yourself not to care? When I'm able to do that I play much better with much less swinging. I might try the penny tables out later just for some patience and discipline training.

Thanks,
Max

[pufferfish]

bernie,

I don’t think I get your post. I hate the micros! I almost quit playing poker because of the stinking $.50/$1 tables at Paradise!

There are other textures that I think are easier for a new player to deal with. Loose/nuts is not how I would choose to do it if I could start over again.

Loose/reasonable at the penny tables at UB is, IMHO, a very good place to start. See you there later kid. I’ll be the one raising 72o pre-flop!!! /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

TC,
pf

[bernie]

why take the beat personally? put it this way, it's not the players fault he caught the card that beat you. paying, against the odds, all the way to catch it. again, it's not his fault he caught the card.

after awhile, nothing will really suprise you with what theyll call you with.

it is kind of like training yourself not to care. but knowing and believing why you want them to call and catch at times helps. do you really want them to fold with their hand prior to hindsight?

it's a tough hurdle that many players have problems getting over. some dont get over it. (table coaches come to mind) after awhile, you may find the idiot table coaches bellowing rather amusing. since theyre openly stating how f-ing stupid they are. it took me some time to get over that hurdle. heh heh, but now im kinda jaded to it as nothing suprises me. haha

that said, it is part of the normal progression of a player to go through what youre going through. the fact that you recognize it and want to do something about it puts you way ahead of the average player in that respect.

b

[bernie]

"There are other textures that I think are easier for a new player to deal with. Loose/nuts is not how I would choose to do it if I could start over again."

this has a valid point as far as playing a texture that youre present style is tailored to at this time. however...

would you rather learn to beat a texture you may come across at a higher limit at the higher limit? or learn it cheaply...

i think you have a point though in getting comfortable in one texture, then expanding once youre comfortable with it.

i learned the no foldems/cap happy's on play money table. this table wont happen as much on live games, but good to be ready. learned shorthanded on 5 max fake tables. (which is great for learning this type of game.)

it also never hurts to get a good start in building up that bad beat skin for when ya really get hammered time and time again. love those sessions.

b

[pufferfish]

learned shorthanded on 5 max fake tables. (which is great for learning this type of game.)

Same here and I always feel pretty comfortable when I get to the short-handed stage of a tourney. Watch out suckers!

it also never hurts to get a good start in building up that bad beat skin for when ya really get hammered time and time again. love those sessions.

You got me there. I just couldn’t take it anymore and fled to tighter tables, where I actually feel more comfortable. But, I'll have to face it eventually.

Seriously, if you ever want to play no-foldem at a UB penny table (the only place I’d dare face you, let me know), /forums/images/icons/smile.gif I’m on UB right now.

TC,
pf

[Girchuck]

If someone keeps sucking out on me with trash, and starts getting on my nerves, I just put a four-letter word starting with f in his player description, and that makes me feel better.
Ofcourse, I put this four-letter word in description of everyone who plays trash constantly.

[Bob T.]

They seem to be pathologically driven to suck out on you, and in the long run, that's probably a very good thing, but it adds into terrible swings when they river their Q6 two-pair to your AQ. How are people playing these loose low limit games when you can't really raise to thin the field in most cases?

I find that when I play online, that I frequently do well by playing mini-sessions. Instead of playing for four hours on one table, play for an hour, take a break, join a new table, play for a while, and repeat.

The breaks allow you to clear your brain and give you a fresh start. Maybe, you could use your second bad beat at a table, or you first or second bad play at the table to be a signal, that you need to log off for a while, and reset your mental state.

I have also found that the longer that I have played, the better I am able to resist tilt, and play through some adversity. I've seen money come and go, and I know that when I lose a big pot, that I can frequently come back from that, or I can be stuck 20 or 30 big bets, and I know that I can still come back and post a winning session, if I just stick with the things that usually produce wins for me.

When you are playing against the call, call, call guys, what you need to do, is value bet, value bet, value bet. If you don't have enough to beat them, you can't be bluffing, or making moves. You just have to have value that is going to be enough to win more often than not.

[richie]

Hi Max, I can relate to your problem. The more you play online, the more you will get used to the suckouts. It took me a long time to adjust, but as Bernie says you will see it all, and I mean all /forums/images/icons/grin.gif Remember, if you play well you will win in the long run; don't get obsessed with short term results. I play at several different sites and if I get frustrated, I go play at a different site, and sometimes a different type of game. Like Bob says, take a break and/or play shorter sessions. The beauty of online poker is the variety and accessibility of different poker sites and the ability to blow off steam at home where no one can hear you. Read the book entitled "Zen and the art of Poker". I keep that book handy when things get ugly. Remember also that you can't win every session; i try to look at my win/losses on a monthly basis, and then evaluate my play.

[kiddo]

John Feeny writes in his book, "Inside the poker mind":
"... the vast majority of players are constantly and intensly focused on how they are doing RIGHT NOW. This is their central concern as they play."

We have talked about this in my homegame and it seems like the players that always keeps track of their bankroll more often starts to think: "Oh, no, I must get those 5 big bets back, NOW, not later."

There is a chapter in Feeneys bok - "Sublte losses of judgement" - that discuss things like starting to play to many hands, calling down to much, ignoring that some of your outs are dead... I found this very useful trying to not to go on semi-tilt after a couple of bad beats.

When you play at the lowest limits online much of your pokerskill is worthless. People are calling both with inside straight and with 2 pair, you cant put them on a hand becuase thet always play the same. If they see their preflop cards and want to play them, they dont care if you raise... and so on... But its easy to beat this games. They wont bet their ok, but not extremly good hand, but you will.

A good advice is to bet a lot on the flop, specially in late position, also with not so very good hands. The game is passive, and they will normally check to you on turn: you will get in controll. And, at lowlimit, when someone flops a great hand, they always wait untill turn with their raise. Most of the times they will check to you on turn and its easy for you to get a free card. Take for exampel a paired flop like 44Q... If you bet in late position on flop and get 3-4 callers: dont bet turn and river with your QJ if you think you will go on tilt if someone in early position only calls you down with his 46o, fearing your better kicker to the trips. If you are on semi-tilt, check turn and call their riverbet and say to yourself: "That was a nice turncheck, saved me a bet against this passive players".

When someone suck-out on me, getting their third 2 to their 22 on river I try to very fast - before exploding - type: "nh" in the chatwindow. Usually the bad players answers "ty" and then it feels a little better cause I undetand he is not an evil man trying to chase me down, no, this is a normal situation for him, nothing personal, he is just a bad player, playing to many hands trying to have a good time, thinking poker is all about luck and unluck. Sklansky, or if it is Malmuth, have said that Texas holdem is the perfect mix between short-term luck and long-term skill. The bad players get enough of good runs to stay, but the good players will win in a not very long-term.

[John Biggs]

Max, I know exactly what you're talking about. I think that online poker makes it easier to tilt because of the quick pace and anonymity - kind of like road rage.

Two things I'd suggest:

1) Get a copy of "Inside the Poker Mind" by John Feeney, published by Two Plus Two, if you haven't already. A lot of people criticize this book as being too simplistic, and it is a little stodgy in places, but overall Feeney has a lot of worthwhile ideas about why tilt happens and how to avoid it.

2) Since you mentioned the loose-games section of HPFAP, be very, very wary of applying what it says too broadly. It is meant only for loose-passive games where most of the time five or more players are regularly seeing the flop for a single bet. Online games vary from this sort of game to a much different kind of game where only a few players are seeing the flop, quite often for a raise, even though they play very loosely on the flop and turn. In this latter type of game, you will get killed if you try to follow the HPFAP loose-games advice to the letter.

[TJD]

With the greatest respect,it is your attitude to the game that needs changing I think.

Do you believe that you outplay your opponents?
Do you believe that you have greater skill?

While both of these may be true. It is not why you win in LL games. You win because THEY make mistakes.

All you can ever do is play the hand "right".

If you play a hand "right" and lose chips then you should congratulate yourself on playing the hand well.

On the other hand if you play a hand "wrong", even if you win the pot, then you should be aware of your mistake and try not to repeat it.

You have absolutely ZERO control over the outcome of a particular hand. True, you may make plays that attempt to remove threats from the pot when you have a vulnerable hand but whether that play works or not is beyond your control. The player at whom you aim this play will either do as you wish or not. It is decided in the heavens :-)

If a player hangs about, calling bets/raises with poor odds, then whether or not they suck out on you is beyond your control.

You need to accept ABSOLUTELY within your own pysche that there is only one thing you can ever do to maximise your winning chances and that is to play "right"

The results of a pot or a session will be down to luck. Nothing more; nothing less. You need to believe that with all your heart.

If you think you are outplaying your opponents and beating them by your superior skill you are indulging in an ego trip and we all know how we feel if our ego is attacked. We feel defensive and angry and want to get even. THAT is tilt!

If YOU play "right" and your opponents play badly you WILL win. Whether it is this pot or this session is completely beyond your ability to predict or control. Accept that with all your heart.

The reason you will win is because you have an edge.

You do not see casinos changing the way the offer odds at roulette or craps in order to change their "luck". In those games they have an edge and they just keep applying it time after time. Do casinos get worried because they have a bad 2 hours? Be serious!

Do not take any hand personally, it is destructive and to be frank, completely stupid!

Play "right" and take in the money.

Best of luck

T