prayingmantis FE article (LC)

[bawcerelli]

i searched for the damn prayingmantis fold equity article/thread but can't find it. anyone have a link?

[The Don]

Too lazy...

Here's the summary: You have less FE in the low limit SNGs.

[wuwei]

here (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=888770&page=&view=&sb =5&o=)

[splashpot]

I believe this is what you are looking for. (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=873176&page=3&view=co llapsed&sb=9&o=all&vc=1)

[curtains]

btw I have some theories about that article in that it's not completely true. There are plenty of situations where I believe a higher buyin opponent is MORE likely to call than a lower buyin opponent because they understand you may be pushing a very wide range and they will be correct to call with their mediocre hand in this circumstance, although its possible I'm wrong about this.

I just felt that I encountered less resistance in the $33-$109s when stealing late in a sit and go.

[splashpot]

[ QUOTE ]

btw I have some theories about that article in that it's not completely true. There are plenty of situations where I believe a higher buyin opponent is MORE likely to call than a lower buyin opponent because they understand you may be pushing a very wide range and they will be correct to call with their mediocre hand in this circumstance, although its possible I'm wrong about this.

I just felt that I encountered less resistance in the $33-$109s when stealing late in a sit and go.

[/ QUOTE ]
If those players are good enough to understand that your pushing range is large, they should also be good enough to know that by calling, they take EV from the 2 of you and give it to the rest of the players. Shouldn't they? What I'm saying is that they would know it is "correct" to fold.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
If those players are good enough to understand that your pushing range is large, they should also be good enough to know that by calling, they take EV from the 2 of you and give it to the rest of the players. Shouldn't they? What I'm saying is that they would know it is "correct" to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

there are plenty of calls that people could make that are +ev for them, -ev for you, and they don't make them at lower stakes games, but they are mildly likely to make them at higher stakes games. in the higher stakes games, they make some strange calls that are -ev for them -ev for you (as they make them in the lower stakes games), but that's a different story. curtains is talking about the types of calls that he has been posting quite a bit about lately, say, in the day old post about chaostricize's A3 or A8 or whatnot hand, where the call is +ev, but some players will not make it (there are more borderline plays than that, such as fiery's 33 call against curtains a while back).

the point is that while some calling is -ev -ev, there's also calls that are +ev (opp) -ev (you) if your opp puts you correctly on a signficantly wide range of hands. that doesn't mean necessarilly that you or your opp made a mistake in the hand, it just means that your opp made a +ev call. the notion that all late game calls that don't involve premium pocket pairs are bad calls are wrong is incorrect, obsolete, and just debunked, at this point. the players who are thriving and continuing to improve at those players that understand this.

the point is that the correct way to play in the late game changes considerably based on the stakes and opponents you are playing. (stakes in this case used to imply a differing basis of average opponents.) when the average opponent is pushing too tight, and calling too tight, it makes sense to call less and push more. as your opponents move towards pushing optimally and calling optimally, so do your pushes and calls have to move as well, so against looser pushes, you must call looser, and against looser callsers, well, you must push optimally based on their pushing ranges, which is tighter than when the players are tight, but not necessarilly tighter than when they are loose and stupid in their calls.

kowing your opponents is key.

citanul

[curtains]

About to search for my favorite hand ever and post it...one moment...

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]

About to search for my favorite hand ever and post it...one moment...

[/ QUOTE ]

quickly, i'm about to brush my teeth, and i want to see this before i go to bed.

citanul

[curtains]

Maybe it's obvious but everyone I asked said it was an obvious fold, whereas I think it's a clear call against this opponent.

edit - got converter to work


Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Button (t2260)
FieryJustice (t780)
Hero (t2035)
UTG (t1060)
MP (t1660)
CO (t2205)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, SB is allin [t780] t75, Hero calls t630.

Flop: (t855) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Turn: (t855) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

River: (t855) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Final Pot: t855

[citanul]

oh, come on, you tease, show us the table chat that followed.

citanul

[curtains]

NO CHAT!!!!!!!!!! It was unbelievable, I was excited for it. btw I'm done beating up on FJ and his ranting at the table or anyone elses for that matter.

Anyway this is a case where a player almost surely has more FE in the lower limits than against observant and willing to gamble in a +EV spot albeit with ugly cards at the higher limits.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]

NO CHAT!!!!!!!!!! btw I'm done beating up on FJ and his ranting at the table or anyone elses for that matter.

[/ QUOTE ]

BOOOOOOOOO

citanul

[curtains]

No, Im not denying you the chat, there simply was none. He took this one like a champion /images/graemlins/smile.gif

It's easy to play poker when you know your opponent is pushing any 2. Just becomes a simple math problem. If I recall this call wasn't even close...it was something like +1.5% against any 2.

[citanul]

Wow! (not to the numbers, but to the taking it like a champ.)

i think that a lot of the problems that FJ was having sort of have to do with the fact that he relied heavily on pushing any two, and frequently, and once your opponents start to pick up on that, even the dumber ones will start to pick you off. sometimes they'll do it in -ev -ev ways, but that hurts you too. meh.

i kinda liked your anti fj posts, but oh well, all good things come to an end.

such as my birthday. i go sleep now.

citanul

[curtains]

Goodnight, Happy Bday!

[curtains]

Yeah against some opponents its very dangerous if they know the exact range you are pushing with, assuming its exploitable, as is pushing any 2 in that spot from the SB.

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]

Goodnight, Happy Bday!

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, happy birthday citanul!!!!!!!

http://66.111.48.150/aAfkjfp01fo1i-30549/loc31/2e2MinkiVanDerWesthuizenFeb2003005.jpg

/images/graemlins/heart.gif

Yugoslav

[Freudian]

[ QUOTE ]
No, Im not denying you the chat, there simply was none. He took this one like a champion /images/graemlins/smile.gif

It's easy to play poker when you know your opponent is pushing any 2. Just becomes a simple math problem. If I recall this call wasn't even close...it was something like +1.5% against any 2.

[/ QUOTE ]

And you can't really put a monetary value on the smile it puts on heros face.

[FieryJustice]

just so you know, I dont push "any 2" very often anymore simply because people call me with total [censored] like Q3. I did push with 73 last night. Too bad the bb had AA. Everyone laughed at me and called me a total fish.

[curtains]

Yea but that was how you were playing at the time...Im sure you don't anymore, although in that situation against an anonymous opponent, its usually correct to do so.

[Sykes]

This is a really pointless debate because it totally depends on the opponet.

While the theory is that that the lower the limits, the more likely you are going to be called by crap, there are opponets that will fold with half their stack in the BB.

So, it totally depends. There is no ABC answer.

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
btw I have some theories about that article in that it's not completely true. There are plenty of situations where I believe a higher buyin opponent is MORE likely to call than a lower buyin opponent because they understand you may be pushing a very wide range and they will be correct to call with their mediocre hand in this circumstance, although its possible I'm wrong about this.

I just felt that I encountered less resistance in the $33-$109s when stealing late in a sit and go.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course my point in that article was somewhat simplistic (or actually was presented in a somewhat simplistic way, in order to deliver a basic point to people who were still completely unaware of it), and as a result it is obviously not completely true.

However, I believe that the main idea still stands and is true in general: the lower you go down in limits, people (you might say: the majority of people, or the "standard opponent") will be more willing to play more hands with you, with some important tendency to play the same very hands as the caller or aggressor without considering the difference (this is the meaning of not understanding the gap concept). As a result of this misunderstanding, a general approach would always be to play somewhat tighter as the aggressor, when the limits go down. That was the idea behind this FE article. Surely one can find many exceptions for this, as this is not a rule or law by any sense. And the notion that at some point when you cross a certain buy-in people will be actually willing to call MORE than at a previous point is also valid, and is an aspect of one of the more paradoxical phenomena in poker, that is, from a certain point and on the play of the best player and fish might _seem_ to be very similar, while different from the play of ok-"good"-"very good" players.

[citanul]

i repeat my boooooooitude for not being able to see this picture.

citanul

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
i repeat my boooooooitude for not being able to see this picture.

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

Everyone I asked last night could see it.

Apparently posting pictures is also rigged, /images/graemlins/frown.gif.

http://69.93.50.122/wonderfulgirls/photos/D025800751A34A7D90AA448798D66B3A.jpg

Yugoslav

[gisb0rne]

[ QUOTE ]
It's easy to play poker when you know your opponent is pushing any 2. Just becomes a simple math problem. If I recall this call wasn't even close...it was something like +1.5% against any 2.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's +0.6% against any 2 according to PT.

[curtains]

Ok, you are correct. However I had been playing with FJ a lot at this time and was basically sure that he was pushing with any 2. +.6% is enough for me but I agree it's not some absurd amount, meaning if I didn't feel sure he had any 2, I should probably fold.

[downtown]

I posted a discussion of this article here (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=singletable&amp;Number=3445535 &amp;Forum=,All_Forums,&amp;Words=&amp;Searchpage=0&amp;Limit=25&amp;M ain=3445535&amp;Search=true&amp;where=&amp;Name=23175&amp;daterang e=&amp;newerval=&amp;newertype=&amp;olderval=&amp;oldertype=&amp;bodyp rev=#Post3445535) a few days ago. If anyone wants to address it or revive it, it didn't get much attention. It's relevant to this discussion, but my question focused more on the move up to $55 and $109.