$55 - QJd in the SB. *** POST FLOP CONTENT!!! ***

[octaveshift]

OK, I am not super-excited about the way I played this, but I think the villain played this poorly too. I obviously draw the nuts on the river, so we know I win, but... anyone care to guess what he's holding?

Advice/comments on all streets appreciated.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Button (t580)
Hero (t1005)
BB (t975)
UTG (t985)
UTG+1 (t1130)
MP1 (t1130)
MP2 (t2170)
MP3 (t930)
CO (t1095)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls t30, 4 folds</font>, Button calls t30, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t120) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
Hero bets t125, BB calls t125, UTG+1 folds, Button folds.

Turn: (t370) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets t200, Hero calls t200.

River: (t770) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif(2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets 300, Hero raises all-In t650, BB calls t320

Final Pot: t2000ish

[bigt439]

I usually will check call this and lead the turn for 1/2 - 2/3 of the pot depending on the card and assuming it's hu. Given how you played the flop I lead the turn because he checks behind with a bazillion hands, but may not believe you if you bet. I probably bet half pot though.

Villain could have so many hands, especially if he played it badly.

[octaveshift]

[ QUOTE ]
I usually will check call this

[/ QUOTE ]

You check/call TP with a decent kicker?

What about a CR instead?

Edit: Keep in mind there are 3 villains on the flop. I don't want to give any free cards. Ergo, I think checking here is a mistake. My mistake was betting too much on the flop. (I think I should be more inclined to keeping the pot small, since I am OOP.)

[kyro]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I usually will check call this

[/ QUOTE ]

You check/call TP with a decent kicker?

What about a CR instead?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what we call "bloating the pot with a marginal hand."

Well, it's what I call it anyways. I'm not sure if I've ever heard it elsewhere.

I lead the flop for less than you did...I very rarely overbet the pot. So, like 90-100. I probably check/call the turn and I certainly lead that river. He'll be much more likely to call you with a T then he is to bet with it.

[pokerlaw]

I think that checking the flop isn't the best play and prefer a bet. I think t125 is slightly high, jsut b/c i dont bet pot often early. i like t100, but yeah, bet it.

check/calling makes the turn a lot tougher. what do you do if a 7 comes out? if you check, too likely you get bet out of the pot.

i think you played it fine. i mean, its party, he could have 44 or A10 or a lot of stuff the way he played this. maybe KJ?

[Chaostracize]

I like the title, made me smile.

I like a river open push, but this is definitely a nice spot for a check raise.

Not sure if I like the pot bet on the flop, I'd aim more around 80 here, but that's just "style".

Turn check is fine.

Yeah, I think I like.

[octaveshift]

[ QUOTE ]
I very rarely overbet the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, this is a direct result of my laziness. I don't type my bets in, I just use the slider to get it as close to the pot as possible. (125 is one of the increments it stops at.)

Lame, I know.

I haven't read any replies yet so I may edit this to say something completely different...

I like the play. BUT you have got to bet the river.

He will check way too many times here. Also, unless he is a complete idiot he would not have bet the 200 on the turn when you opened the flop for 125...(EDIT...if he was holding a worse hand then yours /images/graemlins/crazy.gif)

[octaveshift]

[ QUOTE ]
I haven't read any replies yet so I may edit this to say something completely different...

I like the play. BUT you have got to bet the river.

He will check way too many times here. Also, unless he is a complete idiot he would not have bet the 200 on the turn when you opened the flop for 125.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, this is the street I dislike the most. I really need to lead here.

[Chaostracize]

I personally don't like leading the turn here. The reason being that you want to get to showdown and getting raised here would make you vomit. There really aren't that many cards you're afraid to see on the river. Way ahead/way behind situation here, which makes me lean toward checking. Helps the river value bet here too if villain has something like AT.

Edit: Third time's the charm.

[octaveshift]

[ QUOTE ]
getting raised here would make you vomit.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not terribly afraid of getting all-in here. It might be a leak, but I'm prepared to go down with the ship.

[Chaostracize]

I would say, that if you bet out and are raised on this turn, you are beat much too often to make the call profitable.

Does anyone agree with me?

[durron597]

I am never ever ever leading this flop, especially with this many opponents, and especially. You will only get action from hands that have a good draw or hands that beat you, and if you get called you will have no idea where you are on the turn.

I either check/call or check/raise this flop depending on the aggressiveness of the person that's betting. Without a read, I check/call if there's an EP bettor, and check/raise if the bettor is in LP. This way I maximize the amount of money I get from bluffers and I don't bloat the pot when I'm more likely to be behind.

If the flop checks around, I lead out no-A no-K turns for about 90 chips. I do lead out Q turns as well since most likely I will be put on a T and thus might get action from hands that would have folded the flop.

[octaveshift]

[ QUOTE ]
\ Without a read, I check/call if there's an EP bettor, and check/raise if the bettor is in LP. This way I maximize the amount of money I get from bluffers and I don't bloat the pot when I'm more likely to be behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very insightful, thank you.

Preflop: ok

Flop: I bet smaller

Turn: I always lead this turn as the typical player expects a standard "I made trips this street" check. I may even overbet here, but I don't think I have the balls.

River: I like the check since you gave BB the lead. If I'd played this hand as described, I lead the again.

[curtains]

I usually check these flops (and often check raise) but thats debatable.

On the turn I would bet again. Your opponent probably has something to call you with, as the 3rd queen on board usually makes them feel like it's less likely that you hold a queen, and thus they will consider the situation unchanged from the flop. A bet of 200 should get at least called most of the time and should help to tie your opponent to the pot for the river.

[octaveshift]

OK, here's what he had, and you'll see that my leading the flop was actually a blessing in disguise: 33

I think that if I had checkraised, he would have pushed, and I'd probably of folded.

If you look at the hand from his perspective, I think I can see what he was thinking, but I don't like him not reraising the flop bet.

It's kind of fortuitous that I misplayed this, because I think if I had taken a different line, I would have ended up folding.

[RikaKazak]

bet 2/3 pot on flop, and lead on turn, don't want a str8 draw checking behind

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
I would say, that if you bet out and are raised on this turn, you are beat much too often to make the call profitable.

Does anyone agree with me?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't agree!!

[bennies]

[ QUOTE ]

It's kind of fortuitous that I misplayed this, because I think if I had taken a different line, I would have ended up folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

naa, checking still rules. Check/call, check/call, bet river.



(I really don't like betting the flop into 3 opponents, by betting I feel we tell them the strenght of our holding, that is, a mediocre hand.)

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I usually will check call this

[/ QUOTE ]

You check/call TP with a decent kicker?

What about a CR instead?

Edit: Keep in mind there are 3 villains on the flop. I don't want to give any free cards. Ergo, I think checking here is a mistake. My mistake was betting too much on the flop. (I think I should be more inclined to keeping the pot small, since I am OOP.)



[/ QUOTE ]

Let me explain myself a little bit, although it has been touched on a bit by other posters. I'm check calling here for a number of reasons that essentially amount to trying to lose the minimum and win the maximum by getting solid information out of the chips you put in.

By checking you get to send it around and see what everyone does. If a party breaks out you can peace. If you check call and someone check raises behind you, you can leave. The reason I don't check raise in this specific spot, is if there are one or two people left to act behind you. What cold calls there that you are worried about giving free cards too? KJ and J9 pretty much, with a few exceptions. While typically you would have liked to charge the draw, you were going to slow down if an A hit anyways and you can play cautiously if you think he was helped. Either way, him cold-calling behind you shouldn't happen very much. This is not a draw heavy board. By just check calling you can sniff our a check raise from behind you if that happens. Check calling almost always gets you hu and if the pot goes multi-way you are usually beat anyways (obviously exceptions, but you know how to play poker I don't need to tell you this).

The main disadvantage of the c/r is the number of streets you will have left to play. If you c/r and are called (which in my opinion is done more than if you sng, for obvious reasons), you have two streets to navigate now. You can't really lead the turn if you c/r because of how big the pot will be. You'll have to completely tie yourself to the pot, and if all the money goes in here I don't think you come out with it alot. If you sng, you only have to check one street, and it becomes a much more manageable pot.

When you lead the turn (note not this turn, I'm going broke on this turn now), but a blank turn, you can usually safely fold if raised. If you have tpgk and show as much strength as this stop n go and then get raised, you have to lay it down.

This approach seems to let us get as much money in as we would like when ahead, and get away from our hand fairly easily when beat. I don't like leading because it has all the pros of the sng, but the additional con of putting in money when you have no information.

[caretaker1]

I like the line you took. Looks good to me.

[octaveshift]

[ QUOTE ]

Let me explain myself a little bit, although it has been touched on a bit by other posters....

[/ QUOTE ]

Awesome post, thank you for taking the time to explain your rationale....

[microbet]

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Button (t580)
Hero (t1005)
BB (t975)
UTG (t985)
UTG+1 (t1130)
MP1 (t1130)
MP2 (t2170)
MP3 (t930)
CO (t1095)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls t30, 4 folds</font>, Button calls t30, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t120) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
Hero bets t125, BB calls t125, UTG+1 folds, Button folds.

Turn: (t370) BLANK

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, now if you lead out you are probably going to fold almost every hand you are ahead of. Several hands that are ahead of you will likely just call. You will probably get raised by some a number of hands that have you beat.

If you check/call again, you may get a value bet or a bluff from some hands that you beat.

Note: This isn't really the way I play it, I'm just playing devil's (I mean Unarmed's) advocate.