OK. So I'm beat. Can I just check-fold?

[aflaba]

Today was an awful day... I was experimenting.

But in this hand I just didn't know what to do.

Opponent is SixCardMonte. I don't know much about him but he is a regular in 10/20. My (vague) impression is that isn't overly aggressive or trciky. But really, I have little clue.



Party Poker 10.00/20.00 Hold'em <font color="#0000FF">(4 handed)</font> link (http://www.darksun.lunarpages.com/poker/)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with T/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls.

He knows I'm tight so I don't think he is 3-betting much. Unless he figures me for weak. Anyway I thought I wasn't ahead of his range. So I figured I'd ch/r on good flops and probably call down on bad flops.


Flop: (7.50 SB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

OK. So the flop was good. Apparantly he didn't mind it either.


Turn: (6.75 BB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, Hero folds.

Ugh. What do I do now?


Final Pot: 9.75 BB.



What hand range do you put my opponent on through the hand?

How do you think I should have played it?

[tongni]

SixCardMonte's reasonably good, pretty aggressive and tricky from what I remember. But it's been a while. That said, I'm not exactly sure what you are trying to do here. You checkraise the flop, then lead the turn when the ace falls. Unless you have specifically A8 here, it doesn't really add up. You are probably beaten when the turn comes, but I can't be sure enough and I would check call the turn and check fold the river, or maybe check call because it is 4 handed. Depends on how the table feels. Be thankful he let you off the hook easy this time and decided to save you the extra BB instead of just calling the turn and betting when checked to on the river. Also this is an easy cap preflop, which might have won you the hand.

IMO, he has one of 3 hands once he backs off on the flop -- all of which beat you by the turn. Was the turn bet intentional, or did you click too fast (not kidding here, if you're multi-tabling, it can happen)? Anything other than c/f on the turn is just spewing chips.

[aflaba]

[ QUOTE ]
That said, I'm not exactly sure what you are trying to do here.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol. I was only trying to get away from the hand cheaply. I really wanted to check-fold. You're right that he still could have made me pay 2 BB though.


[ QUOTE ]
You are probably beaten when the turn comes, but I can't be sure enough and I would check call the turn and check fold the river, or maybe check call because it is 4 handed.

[/ QUOTE ]

check-call + check-fold seems like a better way to "get away cheaply". I never use that line though, so it didn't cross my mind. I see how it can be good though and I'll try to make it an option in the future.


[ QUOTE ]
Also this is an easy cap preflop, which might have won you the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I still can't really grasp this. Why is it better to cap than to call and ch/raise his autobets on favorable flops? By waiting and ch/rasing I get my money in with much better equity.

I guess it is because my fold equity is better when "3-betting + betting" than when "calling + ch/r"? Is that the reason? Are there more reasons?

[Grisgra]

[ QUOTE ]
IMO, he has one of 3 hands once he backs off on the flop -- all of which beat you by the turn. Was the turn bet intentional, or did you click too fast (not kidding here, if you're multi-tabling, it can happen)? Anything other than c/f on the turn is just spewing chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

He didn't back off on the flop. He played the flop like he had a set or overpair, then played the turn like he had a set or AK . . . or was being tricky. I probably call down just because I want to know if this guy is capable of 3-betting the flop with AK, but my curiousity usually gets the best of me.

[pshabi]

Someone needs to explain to me the value of check/calling the turn, only to check/fold the river.

You have two outs if behind on the turn? Why not just check/fold the turn if you're not going to showdown?

I don't get it, but maybe I'm missing something.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
IMO, he has one of 3 hands once he backs off on the flop -- all of which beat you by the turn. Was the turn bet intentional, or did you click too fast (not kidding here, if you're multi-tabling, it can happen)? Anything other than c/f on the turn is just spewing chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

He didn't back off on the flop. He played the flop like he had a set or overpair, then played the turn like he had a set or AK . . . or was being tricky. I probably call down just because I want to know if this guy is capable of 3-betting the flop with AK, but my curiousity usually gets the best of me.

[/ QUOTE ]

He DID back off on the flop. The reason why he did it doesn't change the fact that he backed off. The 3 hands I figure were 88, AA or AK. I have plenty of hands with him and he's not that tricky (at least not against me).

[chio]

terrible turn bet

(1) he may have been getting frisky with AK on the flop
(2) 99-KK aren't folding in this game
(3) he might check behind with 99-KK and give you a free river
(4) if you think you might still be ahead, just check-call

check-fold, check-raise, check-call are all better than betting the turn, IMO, in that order

[bugstud]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
IMO, he has one of 3 hands once he backs off on the flop -- all of which beat you by the turn. Was the turn bet intentional, or did you click too fast (not kidding here, if you're multi-tabling, it can happen)? Anything other than c/f on the turn is just spewing chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

He didn't back off on the flop. He played the flop like he had a set or overpair, then played the turn like he had a set or AK . . . or was being tricky. I probably call down just because I want to know if this guy is capable of 3-betting the flop with AK, but my curiousity usually gets the best of me.

[/ QUOTE ]

He DID back off on the flop. The reason why he did it doesn't change the fact that he backed off. The 3 hands I figure were 88, AA or AK. I have plenty of hands with him and he's not that tricky (at least not against me).

[/ QUOTE ]

button 3 bet. how is this backing off?

[aflaba]

[ QUOTE ]
Someone needs to explain to me the value of check/calling the turn, only to check/fold the river.

You have two outs if behind on the turn? Why not just check/fold the turn if you're not going to showdown?

I don't get it, but maybe I'm missing something.

[/ QUOTE ]


I think the point is that if he is just being tricky he will back of after you call when that A hits. So he will check the river allowing you to win over his tricky hands.

I don't know if there is enough of them to jusitify paying 1 BB, but I think it is a good alternative to consider.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
IMO, he has one of 3 hands once he backs off on the flop -- all of which beat you by the turn. Was the turn bet intentional, or did you click too fast (not kidding here, if you're multi-tabling, it can happen)? Anything other than c/f on the turn is just spewing chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

He didn't back off on the flop. He played the flop like he had a set or overpair, then played the turn like he had a set or AK . . . or was being tricky. I probably call down just because I want to know if this guy is capable of 3-betting the flop with AK, but my curiousity usually gets the best of me.

[/ QUOTE ]

He DID back off on the flop. The reason why he did it doesn't change the fact that he backed off. The 3 hands I figure were 88, AA or AK. I have plenty of hands with him and he's not that tricky (at least not against me).

[/ QUOTE ]

button 3 bet. how is this backing off?

[/ QUOTE ]

WOW....I completely misread that....you guys are right. My apologies. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

That makes Hero's turn bet 100X worse.

[aflaba]

These last two days I've posted two hands saying "I should check-fold here, right?". Next time I'll just try to go ahead and chec-fold and then post "I was right to check-fold here, right?"

[Poldi]

The turn bet doesnt accomplish anything. I sometimes do it to have a safe fold but I think it is bad poker.

[pheasant tail (no 18)]

Over 900 hands I have him at 33/27/2, but he is also about a 5/100 winner so maybe he played so many hands bc. he was getting good cards. He also goes to SD like 45%.

I think it is close btw. a cap pf and a call. TT is a tough hand out of position against a player like that. He has position, usually at least 2 over cards and loves the lead.

The flop is similar. When he 3-bets, which I think he'd often do w/ KJ and better, I think when you are ahead, the pot is so big that he cannot fold. So capping there is an option, but you do not know the chance that you are best--I'd say well over 50%, but even if you are better than him 70%, with 2 more cards to come I think he passes you more than 20% so you have reverse implied odds. And by insiting on the lead you are in a real awkward position when an overcard hits the board. You don't want a free card to be given, but you also don't want to put in 3BBs to get to SD. By calling the 3-bet I think that he is likely to bet the turn whether he is ahead or behind.

I think against a player like this, getting to SD is very important. However....

When the A hits on the turn I like the bet and the fold. He is so likely to either hold an ace or hate it. There is no reason to play for a showdown now. If behind you have 2 outs I don't see him raising more than 2 in 11 times w/ hands that you can beat. It's cheaper than paying 2 bets by checking and you give yourself a chance to win when he has JJ.

[redbeard]

i think i'd capp preflop. lead the flop and three bet there. then when the ace hits the turn the pot is large enough to check call the turn and river.

[ QUOTE ]
i think i'd capp preflop. lead the flop and three bet there. then when the ace hits the turn the pot is large enough to check call the turn and river.

[/ QUOTE ]

If Party Poker eliminated the cap, you might be able to get enough money in to have correct odds for a turn call. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[aflaba]

[ QUOTE ]
When the A hits on the turn I like the bet and the fold. He is so likely to either hold an ace or hate it. There is no reason to play for a showdown now. If behind you have 2 outs I don't see him raising more than 2 in 11 times w/ hands that you can beat. It's cheaper than paying 2 bets by checking and you give yourself a chance to win when he has JJ.

[/ QUOTE ]


Do you like "bet-folding" more than "check-calling + check-folding" like tongni advised?


Factors of ch/c + ch/f:
...

Factors of bet/fold + check/fold:
-You risk getting bluffed out
-You have a (slight?) chance to get TT-KK to fold.


That is pretty much all relevant I can think of? Is there anything else?