countering someone who knows the w/a, w/b line

[Wynton]

Assume you know the villain is aware of the w/a, w/b line.

You raise with JJ utg. Villain reraises from co. Flop is A82, rainbow. You bet the flop, and villain raises.

If he's got something like AK or AQ, that presumably means he should adopt the wa/wb line, correct? Thus, when villain raises the flop, can we reliably infer he does not have an A (or even KK or QQ)? In that case, what is the best line to take?

[brettbrettr]

Wouldn't he be more apt to go wa/wb if you'd capped pre-flop?

Check/call turn and bet the river unless a K or Q hits (then check/call).

[BIGRED]

but what is wa/wb?

[Wynton]

[ QUOTE ]
but what is wa/wb?

[/ QUOTE ]

It means a person is either way ahead or way behind his opponent, e.g., the person who is behind only has 2 outs.

Is the w/a, w/b line where he calls your flop bet, in order to raise you on the turn in order to get an extra sb ?

[Surfbullet]

[ QUOTE ]
Is the w/a, w/b line where he calls your flop bet, in order to raise you on the turn in order to get an extra sb ?

[/ QUOTE ]

The w/a, w/b line is to make sure 1 bet goes in on each street. In position it is calling when bet at and betting when checked to. OOP it is check-call, check-call, bet.

Surf

[Surfbullet]

Hey Wynton,

I assume you capped pf? Now, AK doesn't need the WA/WB line since it's only WB of AA. AQ maybe. I would call the flop + turn, and think about betting the river unless the player was very aggressive and would be likely to bet it for me with a worse hand.

Surf

[kidcolin]

[ QUOTE ]
Is the w/a, w/b line where he calls your flop bet, in order to raise you on the turn in order to get an extra sb ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not necessarily. It means, based on the preflop action and the content of the flop, your hand is either killing the other guys or it is being killed. If you're OOP, w/a, w/b line usually means just check-calling and betting the river. If you're in position, it means just call any bets and bet when checked to. A raise on the river is sometimes appropriate if you're pretty sure you're on the 'ahead' side of things.

Say you raise UTG with ATs and get 3-bet. You call and it's heads up to the flop. It is A x x (no two pair for you). If he has KK-JJ, he'll likely bet when checked to, but might lay it down if you check-raise or something. Also, if he has AK-AJ, you're totally squashed but you want to showdown. So just check-call.

[Wynton]

Actually, Surf, this was a hypothetical and, frankly, I didn't give thought about the pf action that much. Now I see that the pf action could make a difference.

My purpose in the post was simply to contemplate whether there was a good way of taking advantage of someone who you assume would take the wa/wb line when they were, in fact, wa or wb. Perhaps the example isn't the best one I could have used for the discussion?

[colgin]

[ QUOTE ]
If he's got something like AK or AQ, that presumably means he should adopt the wa/wb line, correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you cap? Regardless,I am not sure why he should adopt a WA/WB line. I think those lines are for when there are reasonable, though not necessarily equal, chances (not just some small chance) that you are either WA or WB. Here, villain should expect to be way ahead a very large percentage of the time with Ak or AQ. Especially if you did not cap, villain could put you on an Ace with a worse kicker and thus a raise would just be for pure value and certainly not indicative (from your viewpoint) of him not having an Ace when he does raise the flop. (Hope that makes sense.)

[Danenania]

Assuming villain is solid I think the flop raise is almost always an A on a flop like this. It's not really a wa/wb situation for him (because even most good players are paranoid like you are as shown by this thread). I would call and fold the turn ui.

[kidcolin]

I see what you're getting at, and it's an interesting thought. Maybe at the higher limits it'll work, or against good (not just fair) opponents. The problem I see is that even if you 3-bet or c/r the turn, most will fear being behind but will still call you down with KK or QQ. Players have an odd attachment to their premium hands. They hate folding them. However, a PP like TT-88, (i.e., if you have Jacks, the ones you beat), most will let those go more easily. For one, they don't have fancy pictures on them. And two, they might be facing more than just the A. There might be another overcard out there, making their fold easier. So in many cases, it could still backfire.

The only time I really recall taking advantage of someone using a wa/wb line is when you're in position with AK-AQ, someone c/c's to the river then bets. I'll usually raise here. It's only back-fired a few times when they've rivered two-pair, but it's paid off much better cuz most still paid off with a decent pocket pair.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, Surf, this was a hypothetical and, frankly, I didn't give thought about the pf action that much. Now I see that the pf action could make a difference.

My purpose in the post was simply to contemplate whether there was a good way of taking advantage of someone who you assume would take the wa/wb line when they were, in fact, wa or wb. Perhaps the example isn't the best one I could have used for the discussion?

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem is people [censored] this line up all the time. so you can't effectively formulate a strategy to take advantage of it.

Krishan