Chasing or following the odds? Need advice.

[DaNoob]

I'm at work, so I am going to paste the hand history in the post and forego the usual cosmetic enhancements. I apologize in advance for the ugly appearance. Both of these are what I would consider typical drawing hands, and both make me wonder what the right play is on all streets. I'm still new to pot odds, etc, so this will probably be a no-brainer to the more experienced folks on the site. Also, the stakes are tiny, but the principles should remain the same, so don't laugh when you see the $$ figures.

Hero (or ding-dong perhaps) in question is Senorstinky:

GAME 1:

senorstinky: posts small blind $0.02
bigmalbowski: posts big blind $0.05
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to senorstinky [5s 6h]
EL-KOCKO: calls $0.05
tigger64: folds
evmax: calls $0.05
Kneten: folds
Spidey0034: folds
Trapper: folds
7777GRANNY: calls $0.05
WireNut: calls $0.05
senorstinky: calls $0.03
bigmalbowski: checks
*** FLOP *** [Qc 4h 3d]
senorstinky: checks
bigmalbowski: checks
EL-KOCKO: bets $0.05
evmax: calls $0.05
7777GRANNY: calls $0.05
WireNut: calls $0.05
senorstinky: calls $0.05
bigmalbowski: folds
*** TURN *** [Qc 4h 3d] [Jc]
senorstinky: checks
EL-KOCKO: bets $0.10
evmax: calls $0.10
7777GRANNY: calls $0.10
WireNut: calls $0.10
senorstinky: calls $0.10
*** RIVER *** [Qc 4h 3d Jc] [Td]
senorstinky: checks
EL-KOCKO: checks
evmax: checks
7777GRANNY: checks
WireNut: checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
senorstinky: shows [5s 6h] (high card Queen)
EL-KOCKO: shows [Qs 6s] (a pair of Queens)
evmax: mucks hand
7777GRANNY: mucks hand
WireNut: mucks hand
EL-KOCKO collected $1.05 from pot

GAME 2:

WireNut: posts small blind $0.02
senorstinky: posts big blind $0.05
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to senorstinky [9c 5d]
bigmalbowski: calls $0.05
EL-KOCKO: calls $0.05
tigger64: calls $0.05
evmax: folds
Kneten: calls $0.05
Spidey0034: raises $0.05 to $0.10
Trapper: calls $0.10
7777GRANNY: folds
WireNut: folds
senorstinky: calls $0.05
bigmalbowski: calls $0.05
EL-KOCKO: calls $0.05
tigger64: calls $0.05
Kneten: calls $0.05
*** FLOP *** [Kc 9h Ah]
senorstinky: checks
bigmalbowski: checks
EL-KOCKO: checks
tigger64: checks
Kneten: checks
Spidey0034: bets $0.01 and is all-in
Trapper: calls $0.01
senorstinky: calls $0.01
bigmalbowski: calls $0.01
EL-KOCKO: calls $0.01
tigger64: folds
Kneten: calls $0.01
*** TURN *** [Kc 9h Ah] [3d]
senorstinky: checks
bigmalbowski: bets $0.10
EL-KOCKO: folds
Kneten: calls $0.10
Trapper: folds
senorstinky: folds
*** RIVER *** [Kc 9h Ah 3d] [2d]
bigmalbowski: checks
Kneten: checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
bigmalbowski: shows [Ts Ks] (a pair of Kings)
Kneten: mucks hand
bigmalbowski collected $0.20 from side pot
Spidey0034: shows [Ac Jd] (a pair of Aces)
Spidey0034 collected $0.78 from main pot


1-Should i have folded pre-flop on both hands?
2-Given the flop, was it right to call, should i have raised or mucked instead?
3-On the turn, are the pot odds still there?
4-Call, call, call, muck. Is this weak play or smart given the fact that I don't have crp?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

[Homer]

Hand 1

Preflop - Fold. 9:1 isn't enough to call from the SB with 65o, imo.

Flop - Calling with an open-ended straight draw on a rainbow, unpaired board is a no-brainer getting 10:1. You are 39:8 (about 5:1) against making your hand on the turn, so 10:1 is more than enough to call.

Turn - Call again. You are getting 9.5:1 with about the same odds (actually slightly better) of making your hand on the river as making it on the turn.

Comments - There's nothing wrong with the way you played the hand postflop. It is often correct to check-call with your drawing hands. Another option would have been to bet your draw on the flop, especially since there are so many players. Since you are about 2:1 to get there by the river, it is a value bet if you get 3 or more callers. Plus you may be able to eliminate some overcards, which could make a 5 or 6 good if you catch one of those cards. I would only do this at a passive table. If your opponents are aggressive, I would check-call and see the turn/river as cheaply as possible.

Hand 2

Preflop - Fold. 13.5:1 isn't enough to call from the SB with 95o, imo.

Flop - Correct call getting huge odds. If it is raised behind you take it from there. But you shouldn't worry about that because you're getting like 70:1 on the 1 cent call.

Turn - Good fold getting 9.5:1. If all 5 of your outs are clean you are 8.2:1 against catching on the river, making it a call. However, a heart 5 may not be good (which means you are 10.5:1 against catching), plus you may already be behind a better two-pair, so it is possible that no 5 is good.

-- Homer

[Nottom]

1) Yes, fold preflop ... even from the blinds.

2) Calling is fine in both cases on the flop ... in the second hand only because the .01 bet might as well be a check.

3) In hand 1: yes, Hand 2: no You played them fine.

4) Aside from playing the hands to begin with, your play was fine ... you had bad position both hands so your options were limited. If you were in LP on hand 1, I would encourage you to try for a free card.

[Bob T.]

On hand 1, you have the odds to chase all the way, you don't have any reason to raise at any point.

On hand 2, fold preflop, you have nothing.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

I wouldn't play either hand preflop.

[Franchise (TTT)]

Folding 65o for half a bet, with that many limpers? No way.

[Nottom]

Normally I'd agree that its an acceptable limp from the SB, but as a beginning player who is still working on pot odds and things, he's probably better off tossing hands like this and staying out of trouble.

I only wish I played the same way I know I should.

[DaNoob]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Folding 65o for half a bet, with that many limpers? No way.

[/ QUOTE ]

The main theme above is that I should have folded this hand pre-flop. Yet, with 56, even though it's not suited, it seems like I might have some interesting outs against the rest of the field. If the straight HAD hit (i know that's a big if), it probably would have paid very well.

So, for 3/5 of a small bet, does it make sense to call in this situation? If u think the BB will raise, is this an easy fold?

[Vehn]

65o is an easy easy call preflop in the small blind after 4 limpers. In general, your implied odds are terrible when you don't have any cards in front of you.

[mikeca]

I think this depends on game conditions. If there are players limping with any two suited cards and any pocket pair, this is probably a bad call. You will make your straight too many times and get beaten by a flush or a boat. In most micro-limits games, I would stay away from small unsuited connectors. You also have to know what to do with 2nd or 3rd pair, because you will flop that much more often than a good straight draw.

[marbles]

Actually, the $$ figures jumped out at me as a great thing. I didn't even realize they offered stakes that small online! As long as you commit yourself to playing your A game at all times, there's nothing wrong with starting tiny and working your way up. I look forward to seeing you someday at the mighty $1 tables! /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif

Oh, and I'd almost always fold 65o in the SB after 4 limpers.

[DaNoob]

Thanks for the encouragement. I've started creeping up, occasionally, to the .25/.50 tables, so you will probably see me on the $1/$2 tables sometime this summer. I figure if I can't be a shark amongst the guppies, I've got no business moving to a larger pond. It is tough to stick to the A game though, when it only costs a nickel to see the next card(s)....

[bad beetz]

[eMarkM]

What site is offering stakes this low? This is laughable, of course, but I guess it's beats play games. Even though this is "real money", it's still not enough to make people play seriously, I would think. I know some of these micro-micro limit games don't have a rake. I would move up to the biggest micro-micro that has no rake. Or forget your plans and move to .25/.50 permenently with the occasional stab at 1/2. We're talking $150 for 300BB and I would think the games would be slightly more serious where the consquences of you coming in with 95o would be somewhat more substantial.

[DaNoob]

Stars has .05/.10 as well as .02/.04 games. I sometimes play the .02/.04 HU just to get some practice... since the stakes are pretty much insignificant. While I'm sure neither is a reliable simulation of big money games, I know for a fact that I have learned a bunch (as a beginner) by playing in these games. Idiots and fish exist at all levels (moreso at these limits) and learning how to play/swim with them will serve me well when I move to the bigger stakes.

That said, moving up to the .25/.50 table is probably the best move for me at this point.

[Bob T.]

If there are enough limpers, so that I can call 1 bet if I flop a gutshot, I usually complete with unsuited connectors. In this case, there would be 6 small bets, in the pot, so if I flop a gutshot, I would probably be getting 8 or 9 to 1 to continue on the flop. I think 65 unsuited is really an easy call in this situation.

[Bob T.]

I remember Clarkmeister's post about playing for seashells. I want to win regardless of the limit. I play from .5/1.00 up to 5/10 online, and although my game changes because the games are different at different levels, I like to think that I am competitive enough so that I play as well as I can at any level.

I am sure that there are some players at the micro-micro limits that are fairly competitive, and playing against them is probably a lot better practice than playing in free money games.

[Louie Landale]

Didn't read the responses.

[1] 56o is about as weak as you can get with a small-ratio small-blind. On the flop you are a little worse than a 2:1 underdog to make the straight and it will presumably cost 1.5bb to call. There will clearly be more than 3bb to win so you have PLENTY of pot odds to call.

In fact, since you are ONLY a 2:1 underdog to call you should RAISE with the hand if you figure, on average, to get more than 2 callers. Once you check there are already 3 players in the pot (a bet and 2 calls), so raising was clearly an option. The worst that can happen is it gets 3-bet and everyone else folds. That's not good, but no disaster.

Also, your hand was well worth a bet ON the flop since there was only one high card and you can EASILY steal this one now or on the turn. Flopped draws are pretty strong hands.

[2] Pretty bad call preflop. Now, drawing to bottom pair is MUCH different than drawing to a straight or flush [a] you have less outs [b] you are drawing to a MUCH worse hand. So yes you can draw to a small all-in bet, but folding the turn is pretty routine.

Question [4]. There is no shame in call-call-call-fold. This happens often at low limit when [a] you don't have the best hand [b] cannot bluff [c] are getting the right odds to chase.

Now I'll take issue with the fact that "you don't have dodo". We are heads-up on the flop. You have 22, I have 7h6h. Flop is 5h4h4d. You may have a pair and I have only "7-high dodo", yet I am clearly a huge favorite. Any 8,7,6,5,3, heart or running pair and I win, unless we also get a 4 or 2. So I have 23 outs with two cards to go. Just because the MINIMUM hand YOU can make (two pair 4sUp) is MORE than the MINIMUM hand I can make (pair 4s-7high), doesn't mean your hand is "better". Likewise, since flush and straight draws will connect about 1 time in 3, they are routinely more valuable than bottom pair.

- Louie

[marbles]

"I am sure that there are some players at the micro-micro limits that are fairly competitive, and playing against them is probably a lot better practice than playing in free money games."

--I have no doubt that this is going on. This would be a great place to work on handreading, identifying player tendencies in a cloudy game, and varying your play. Without limits this low at my usual site, I do this with freeroll tourneys, but the concept is the same.

[rtucker5]

I would play the first hand the same way. Hand 2 I would fold pre-flop.

don't laugh when you see the $$ figures

I am not laughing. I logged on to Pokerstars 2 weeks ago for the first time in months and realized I had $2 left. I started playing the .02/.04 games. I built a stake for the .05/.10 games, then the .25/.50 games. I now have over $100 in the account. You can make some huge scores (based on # of big bets) at these limits.