View Full Version : AK hand.
3-table $33 on Party. First orbit or two so no reads. Can anyone find a fold here, ever?
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)
MP3 (t1330)
CO (t1215)
Button (t975)
Hero (t985)
BB (t970)
UTG (t985)
UTG+1 (t335)
UTG+2 (t885)
MP1 (t955)
MP2 (t1365)
Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+2 calls t15, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls t15, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls t15, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t90</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to t165</font>, UTG+2 calls t150, MP2 folds, CO folds, Hero calls t75.
Flop: (t522.50) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets t150</font>, UTG+2 folds, Hero calls t150.
Turn: (t822.50) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets t150</font>, Hero calls t150.
River: (t1122.50) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets t225</font>, Hero calls t225.
Final Pot: t1575
KramerTM
09-12-2005, 12:35 PM
Why are we trying to find a fold here???
Once that perfect flop came down and even better turn, I can't wait to get my money in here.
I don't know about you, but I get queasy when I get min-reraised PF. Once I call PF though, I guess folding postflop would be rather silly.
MegaBet
09-12-2005, 12:42 PM
I'd be very worried about villain having aces (or kings) here, although you really can't get away from this hand. If you lost this hand, then you lost the minimum.
KramerTM
09-12-2005, 12:44 PM
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I'd be very worried about villain having aces (or kings) here.
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This is a bad way to go about this hand, IMHO. Villain will have AQ or AJ far more often than he will have AA or KK. Focus on maximizing how many chips you win here instead of minimizing your losses in these monster-under-the-bed situations.
I don't know how you can check-call TPTK on a safe flop and then top 2 pair on the turn. If you are going to call the reraise, what better flop could you realistically hope for?
You must define your hand and a check-raise on the flop is definitely the place to do it.
There is only one re-raisable hand PF that still beats you on the flop and that is AA. How can you not think you likely have the best hand on that flop?
MegaBet
09-12-2005, 12:46 PM
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I don't know how you can check-call TPTK on a safe flop and then top 2 pair on the turn. If you are going to call the reraise, what better flop could you realistically hope for?
You must define your hand and a check-raise on the flop is definitely the place to do it.
There is only one re-raisable hand PF that still beats you on the flop and that is AA. How can you not think you likely have the best hand on that flop?
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Villain can easily have AA OR KK here.
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I'd be very worried about villain having aces (or kings) here.
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This is a bad way to go about this hand, IMHO. Villain will have AQ or AJ far more often than he will have AA or KK. Focus on maximizing how many chips you win here instead of minimizing your losses in these monster-under-the-bed situations.
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Please direct me to the sites where people minreraise AQ and AJ from the blinds.
KramerTM
09-12-2005, 12:48 PM
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I don't know how you can check-call TPTK on a safe flop and then top 2 pair on the turn. If you are going to call the reraise, what better flop could you realistically hope for?
You must define your hand and a check-raise on the flop is definitely the place to do it.
There is only one re-raisable hand PF that still beats you on the flop and that is AA. How can you not think you likely have the best hand on that flop?
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Villain can easily have AA OR KK here.
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Define "easily." Easily like "Man, it would suck if he had that?" Or easily like "probabilistically." Because if it's the latter, you have to check your numbers. There are only 2 combined ways for him to hold these hands!
KramerTM
09-12-2005, 12:49 PM
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I'd be very worried about villain having aces (or kings) here.
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This is a bad way to go about this hand, IMHO. Villain will have AQ or AJ far more often than he will have AA or KK. Focus on maximizing how many chips you win here instead of minimizing your losses in these monster-under-the-bed situations.
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Please direct me to the sites where people minreraise AQ and AJ from the blinds.
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OK. Party Poker 33+3 SnGs. Play more hands.
MegaBet
09-12-2005, 12:50 PM
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I'd be very worried about villain having aces (or kings) here.
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This is a bad way to go about this hand, IMHO. Villain will have AQ or AJ far more often than he will have AA or KK.
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Not with the min-re-raise preflop. That screams AA ot KK.
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Focus on maximizing how many chips you win here instead of minimizing your losses in these monster-under-the-bed situations.
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You can't just blindly see "I have top 2 pair" and completely disregard the preflop betting. That's fishy behavior.
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I'd be very worried about villain having aces (or kings) here.
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This is a bad way to go about this hand, IMHO. Villain will have AQ or AJ far more often than he will have AA or KK. Focus on maximizing how many chips you win here instead of minimizing your losses in these monster-under-the-bed situations.
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Please direct me to the sites where people minreraise AQ and AJ from the blinds.
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OK. Party Poker 33+3 SnGs. Play more hands.
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I'm going to disagree with you here. AA and KK are much more likely than AQ and AJ.
zambonidrivr
09-12-2005, 12:52 PM
i am going broke here every time. nh. villan had ak didn't he.
jk
MegaBet
09-12-2005, 12:53 PM
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I don't know how you can check-call TPTK on a safe flop and then top 2 pair on the turn. If you are going to call the reraise, what better flop could you realistically hope for?
You must define your hand and a check-raise on the flop is definitely the place to do it.
There is only one re-raisable hand PF that still beats you on the flop and that is AA. How can you not think you likely have the best hand on that flop?
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Villain can easily have AA OR KK here.
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Define "easily." Easily like "Man, it would suck if he had that?" Or easily like "probabilistically." Because if it's the latter, you have to check your numbers. There are only 2 combined ways for him to hold these hands!
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Kramer, do you always ignore the preflop betting? Because that may be a huge leak for you.
KramerTM
09-12-2005, 12:54 PM
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I'd be very worried about villain having aces (or kings) here.
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This is a bad way to go about this hand, IMHO. Villain will have AQ or AJ far more often than he will have AA or KK. Focus on maximizing how many chips you win here instead of minimizing your losses in these monster-under-the-bed situations.
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Please direct me to the sites where people minreraise AQ and AJ from the blinds.
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OK. Party Poker 33+3 SnGs. Play more hands.
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I'm going to disagree with you here. AA and KK are much more likely than AQ and AJ.
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Even if you assume people will min-raise from the button with AA or KK twice as often as they will with AQ, and completely throw away the possibility that Villain might have AJ, it is still TWICE as likely you are up against AQ here. Any of those hands will call your all-in bet. Get as many chips as possible in this pot. If you happen to be up against AA or KK, so be it. It happens. But please don't play scared with top-two pair... THAT'S fishy.
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Why are we trying to find a fold here???
Once that perfect flop came down and even better turn, I can't wait to get my money in here.
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I'd also like to point out that the K was one of the worst turn cards that could come.
KramerTM
09-12-2005, 12:56 PM
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I don't know how you can check-call TPTK on a safe flop and then top 2 pair on the turn. If you are going to call the reraise, what better flop could you realistically hope for?
You must define your hand and a check-raise on the flop is definitely the place to do it.
There is only one re-raisable hand PF that still beats you on the flop and that is AA. How can you not think you likely have the best hand on that flop?
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Villain can easily have AA OR KK here.
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Define "easily." Easily like "Man, it would suck if he had that?" Or easily like "probabilistically." Because if it's the latter, you have to check your numbers. There are only 2 combined ways for him to hold these hands!
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Kramer, do you always ignore the preflop betting? Because that may be a huge leak for you.
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Usually I shut my eyes and try to identify bets based on the sound of the chips going into the pot. /images/graemlins/grin.gif
As I said, there is only ONE possible re-raisable PF hand that villian can have that is still beating you on the flop. (AA btw)
Make your decisions based on pot odds, read of your opponents and most importantly the RANGE of hands that he could hold. Don't just fear the worst. If your range here is that narrow, fine. But if he holds KK instead of AA, you are a 22-1 favorite after that flop and if he is any good he will lay down to a check-raise and never see his third K appear on the turn.
Bottom line, sometimes you have to sacrifice chips for information. Either way it is +EV to be the aggressor on that flop.
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I'd be very worried about villain having aces (or kings) here.
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This is a bad way to go about this hand, IMHO. Villain will have AQ or AJ far more often than he will have AA or KK. Focus on maximizing how many chips you win here instead of minimizing your losses in these monster-under-the-bed situations.
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Please direct me to the sites where people minreraise AQ and AJ from the blinds.
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OK. Party Poker 33+3 SnGs. Play more hands.
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I'm going to disagree with you here. AA and KK are much more likely than AQ and AJ.
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Even if you assume people will min-raise from the button with AA or KK twice as often as they will with AQ, and completely throw away the possibility that Villain might have AJ, it is still TWICE as likely you are up against AQ here. Any of those hands will call your all-in bet. Get as many chips as possible in this pot. If you happen to be up against AA or KK, so be it. It happens. But please don't play scared with top-two pair... THAT'S fishy.
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He didn't reraise from the button. I raised from the SB and he MIN RE-RAISED me from the BB. AA and KK are much more than twice as likely to be raised like this here.
KramerTM
09-12-2005, 12:58 PM
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Why are we trying to find a fold here???
Once that perfect flop came down and even better turn, I can't wait to get my money in here.
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If this is how you play, then why don't you fold PF???
I'd also like to point out that the K was one of the worst turn cards that could come.
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MegaBet
09-12-2005, 12:58 PM
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I'd be very worried about villain having aces (or kings) here.
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This is a bad way to go about this hand, IMHO. Villain will have AQ or AJ far more often than he will have AA or KK. Focus on maximizing how many chips you win here instead of minimizing your losses in these monster-under-the-bed situations.
[/ QUOTE ]
Please direct me to the sites where people minreraise AQ and AJ from the blinds.
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OK. Party Poker 33+3 SnGs. Play more hands.
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I'm going to disagree with you here. AA and KK are much more likely than AQ and AJ.
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Even if you assume people will min-raise from the button with AA or KK twice as often as they will with AQ, and completely throw away the possibility that Villain might have AJ, it is still TWICE as likely you are up against AQ here. Any of those hands will call your all-in bet. Get as many chips as possible in this pot. If you happen to be up against AA or KK, so be it. It happens. But please don't play scared with top-two pair... THAT'S fishy.
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He didn't reraise from the button. I raised from the SB and he MIN RE-RAISED me from the BB. AA and KK are much more than twice as likely to be raised like this here.
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Agreed.
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As I said, there is only ONE possible re-raisable PF hand that villian can have that is still beating you on the flop. (AA btw)
Make your decisions based on pot odds, read of your opponents and most importantly the RANGE of hands that he could hold. Don't just fear the worst. If your range here is that narrow, fine. But if he holds KK instead of AA, you are a 22-1 favorite after that flop and if he is any good he will lay down to a check-raise and never see his third K appear on the turn.
Bottom line, sometimes you have to sacrifice chips for information. Either way it is +EV to be the aggressor on that flop.
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Don't get me wrong, that's a wonderful flop for me. And honestly, folding after I called preflop really never was an option. But I like how I've generated discussion. Very few of my hands do this /images/graemlins/smile.gif
KramerTM
09-12-2005, 12:59 PM
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I'd be very worried about villain having aces (or kings) here.
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This is a bad way to go about this hand, IMHO. Villain will have AQ or AJ far more often than he will have AA or KK. Focus on maximizing how many chips you win here instead of minimizing your losses in these monster-under-the-bed situations.
[/ QUOTE ]
Please direct me to the sites where people minreraise AQ and AJ from the blinds.
[/ QUOTE ]
OK. Party Poker 33+3 SnGs. Play more hands.
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I'm going to disagree with you here. AA and KK are much more likely than AQ and AJ.
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Even if you assume people will min-raise from the button with AA or KK twice as often as they will with AQ, and completely throw away the possibility that Villain might have AJ, it is still TWICE as likely you are up against AQ here. Any of those hands will call your all-in bet. Get as many chips as possible in this pot. If you happen to be up against AA or KK, so be it. It happens. But please don't play scared with top-two pair... THAT'S fishy.
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He didn't reraise from the button. I raised from the SB and he MIN RE-RAISED me from the BB. AA and KK are much more than twice as likely to be raised like this here.
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Giving your opponents too much credit is a major leak.
KramerTM
09-12-2005, 01:00 PM
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But I like how I've generated discussion. Very few of my hands do this /images/graemlins/smile.gif
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At least we agree on one thing. /images/graemlins/grin.gif
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I'd be very worried about villain having aces (or kings) here.
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This is a bad way to go about this hand, IMHO. Villain will have AQ or AJ far more often than he will have AA or KK. Focus on maximizing how many chips you win here instead of minimizing your losses in these monster-under-the-bed situations.
[/ QUOTE ]
Please direct me to the sites where people minreraise AQ and AJ from the blinds.
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OK. Party Poker 33+3 SnGs. Play more hands.
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I'm going to disagree with you here. AA and KK are much more likely than AQ and AJ.
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Even if you assume people will min-raise from the button with AA or KK twice as often as they will with AQ, and completely throw away the possibility that Villain might have AJ, it is still TWICE as likely you are up against AQ here. Any of those hands will call your all-in bet. Get as many chips as possible in this pot. If you happen to be up against AA or KK, so be it. It happens. But please don't play scared with top-two pair... THAT'S fishy.
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He didn't reraise from the button. I raised from the SB and he MIN RE-RAISED me from the BB. AA and KK are much more than twice as likely to be raised like this here.
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Giving your opponents too much credit is a major leak.
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Blindly playing your cards and not paying attention to betting patterns and your opponents is a bigger one. Don't even try to argue this point.
MegaBet
09-12-2005, 01:02 PM
Sooooo kyro...which one was it? AA or KK? /images/graemlins/grin.gif
KramerTM
09-12-2005, 01:04 PM
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I'd be very worried about villain having aces (or kings) here.
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This is a bad way to go about this hand, IMHO. Villain will have AQ or AJ far more often than he will have AA or KK. Focus on maximizing how many chips you win here instead of minimizing your losses in these monster-under-the-bed situations.
[/ QUOTE ]
Please direct me to the sites where people minreraise AQ and AJ from the blinds.
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OK. Party Poker 33+3 SnGs. Play more hands.
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I'm going to disagree with you here. AA and KK are much more likely than AQ and AJ.
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Even if you assume people will min-raise from the button with AA or KK twice as often as they will with AQ, and completely throw away the possibility that Villain might have AJ, it is still TWICE as likely you are up against AQ here. Any of those hands will call your all-in bet. Get as many chips as possible in this pot. If you happen to be up against AA or KK, so be it. It happens. But please don't play scared with top-two pair... THAT'S fishy.
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He didn't reraise from the button. I raised from the SB and he MIN RE-RAISED me from the BB. AA and KK are much more than twice as likely to be raised like this here.
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Giving your opponents too much credit is a major leak.
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Blindly playing your cards and not paying attention to probabilities of hands vs pot odds is a bigger one. Don't even try to argue this point.
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FYP
OK, this has been fun. Hopefully this post will get a few people to at least pay more attention to things other than just their cards. Not necessarily on this hand, but in general.
Villain had AK. I consider myself very lucky to have survived that hand.
KramerTM
09-12-2005, 01:05 PM
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Sooooo kyro...which one was it? AA or KK? /images/graemlins/grin.gif
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This question speaks volumes about your analysis.
KramerTM
09-12-2005, 01:07 PM
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OK, this has been fun. Hopefully this post will get a few people to at least pay more attention to things other than just their cards. Not necessarily on this hand, but in general.
Villain had AK. I consider myself very lucky to have survived that hand.
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Even that was twice as likely as AA or KK.
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OK, this has been fun. Hopefully this post will get a few people to at least pay more attention to things other than just their cards. Not necessarily on this hand, but in general.
Villain had AK. I consider myself very lucky to have survived that hand.
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Even that was twice as likely as AA or KK.
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It's one of the few reasons I stayed in. Too bad you've been trumpeting AQ/AJ the entire post.
MegaBet
09-12-2005, 01:10 PM
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OK, this has been fun. Hopefully this post will get a few people to at least pay more attention to things other than just their cards. Not necessarily on this hand, but in general.
Villain had AK. I consider myself very lucky to have survived that hand.
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Even that was twice as likely as AA or KK.
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Yes, very fortunate. You played this hand perfectly considering the betting. No way would you go all in here, so like I said before, if you lose you lose the minimum.
Kramer, let's agree to disagree on this.
KramerTM
09-12-2005, 01:11 PM
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OK, this has been fun. Hopefully this post will get a few people to at least pay more attention to things other than just their cards. Not necessarily on this hand, but in general.
Villain had AK. I consider myself very lucky to have survived that hand.
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Even that was twice as likely as AA or KK.
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Yes, very fortunate. You played this hand perfectly considering the betting. No way would you go all in here, so like I said before, if you lose you lose the minimum.
Kramer, let's agree to disagree on this.
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lol
FWIW, I've never seen a thread with over 30 posts in it from essentialy only 3 different people.
nh kyro
MegaBet
09-12-2005, 01:14 PM
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OK, this has been fun. Hopefully this post will get a few people to at least pay more attention to things other than just their cards. Not necessarily on this hand, but in general.
Villain had AK. I consider myself very lucky to have survived that hand.
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Even that was twice as likely as AA or KK.
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Yes, very fortunate. You played this hand perfectly considering the betting. No way would you go all in here, so like I said before, if you lose you lose the minimum.
Kramer, let's agree to disagree on this.
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lol
FWIW, I've never seen a thread with over 30 posts in it from essentialy only 3 different people.
nh kyro
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Haha, that's because if I feel I am right I will stick to my guns, unless I am proved incorrect...which has never happened on here.
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As I said, there is only ONE possible re-raisable PF hand that villian can have that is still beating you on the flop. (AA btw)
Make your decisions based on pot odds, read of your opponents and most importantly the RANGE of hands that he could hold. Don't just fear the worst. If your range here is that narrow, fine. But if he holds KK instead of AA, you are a 22-1 favorite after that flop and if he is any good he will lay down to a check-raise and never see his third K appear on the turn.
Bottom line, sometimes you have to sacrifice chips for information. Either way it is +EV to be the aggressor on that flop.
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Don't get me wrong, that's a wonderful flop for me. And honestly, folding after I called preflop really never was an option. But I like how I've generated discussion. Very few of my hands do this /images/graemlins/smile.gif
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Discussion. That's what we're here for!
My main point is that it is easier (and more profitable) to proceed through hands informed and your line never defined your hand when it might have been a huge favorite on the flop. I think even if you put your opponent on one of two hands (AA or KK), you need to find out which! After the flop one you are drawing dead against and one you are a massive favorite against the other.
If the check-raise commits too many chips to find out, then look at leading out at the flop. but having checked, imagine yourself in the villian's shoes with KK - min raised preflop, fine. He then made a great bet (150) for info. on the flop when his ultimate scare card (ace) hit. You need to raise here. If he has KK you are likely winning the pot here.
Let's look at leading out. If you bet ~300 a good player will lay down his KK and if not, he is incorrect to call. If you decide that a call or a raise means AA, then you don't invest any more chips after that.
If you think he has an equal chance of having AA or KK, then you win 520 chips 50% of the time and lose another 300 50% of the time. Your line cost you 525 chips by showdown without ever knowing where you stood.
KramerTM
09-12-2005, 01:16 PM
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OK, this has been fun. Hopefully this post will get a few people to at least pay more attention to things other than just their cards. Not necessarily on this hand, but in general.
Villain had AK. I consider myself very lucky to have survived that hand.
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Even that was twice as likely as AA or KK.
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Yes, very fortunate. You played this hand perfectly considering the betting. No way would you go all in here, so like I said before, if you lose you lose the minimum.
Kramer, let's agree to disagree on this.
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lol
FWIW, I've never seen a thread with over 30 posts in it from essentialy only 3 different people.
nh kyro
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Haha, that's because if I feel I am right I will stick to my guns, unless I am proved incorrect...which has never happened on here.
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Ditto.
Why would I check raise here? By my range, I put him on AA-QQ/AK. I can't see him calling with QQ/KK here and I lose money to AA. If he has AA, I want to lose as little as possible.
MegaBet
09-12-2005, 01:22 PM
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As I said, there is only ONE possible re-raisable PF hand that villian can have that is still beating you on the flop. (AA btw)
Make your decisions based on pot odds, read of your opponents and most importantly the RANGE of hands that he could hold. Don't just fear the worst. If your range here is that narrow, fine. But if he holds KK instead of AA, you are a 22-1 favorite after that flop and if he is any good he will lay down to a check-raise and never see his third K appear on the turn.
Bottom line, sometimes you have to sacrifice chips for information. Either way it is +EV to be the aggressor on that flop.
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Don't get me wrong, that's a wonderful flop for me. And honestly, folding after I called preflop really never was an option. But I like how I've generated discussion. Very few of my hands do this /images/graemlins/smile.gif
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Discussion. That's what we're here for!
My main point is that it is easier (and more profitable) to proceed through hands informed and your line never defined your hand when it might have been a huge favorite on the flop. I think even if you put your opponent on one of two hands (AA or KK), you need to find out which! After the flop one you are drawing dead against and one you are a massive favorite against the other.
If the check-raise commits too many chips to find out, then look at leading out at the flop. but having checked, imagine yourself in the villian's shoes with KK - min raised preflop, fine. He then made a great bet (150) for info. on the flop when his ultimate scare card (ace) hit. You need to raise here. If he has KK you are likely winning the pot here.
Let's look at leading out. If you bet ~300 a good player will lay down his KK and if not, he is incorrect to call. If you decide that a call or a raise means AA, then you don't invest any more chips after that.
If you think he has an equal chance of having AA or KK, then you win 520 chips 50% of the time and lose another 300 50% of the time. Your line cost you 525 chips by showdown without ever knowing where you stood.
[/ QUOTE ]
Villain will almost certainly raise your flop bet with AK, so are you suggesting a fold in that case? I think kyro played the hand perfectly IMO.
durron597
09-12-2005, 01:23 PM
Are you joking? Let's say his range is AA-QQ/AK because of preflop. On the flop, there is only 2 ways for him to have AA/KK, and lets say that he wouldn't bet the river with QQ, so on the river he has AA/KK/AK. There are 4 ways you are chopping and 2 ways you are beaten and there is a ton of dead money in the pot. Call, and expect to chop.
Edit: also this analysis doesn't include the Harrington 10% plus the times he's a donk with AQ/AJ.
durron597
09-12-2005, 01:25 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Villain will almost certainly raise your flop bet with AK, so are you suggesting a fold in that case? I think kyro played the hand perfectly IMO.
[/ QUOTE ]
No he won't, that is a perfect flop for AK and he has nothing to protect. His opponent is probably drawing to at moste three outs, maybe he might want to try to extract the max out of AQ/AJ?
If that is your range, then what are you seriously hoping to flop? His continuation bet after being checked to makes sense with ANY of the hands you put him on. Maybe he wants to find out where his QQ or KK stands after an ace hit.
I stress the importance of defining your hand. If you are prepared to abandon your mission with any resistance to a check raise (i.e. attribute a re-raise or call to him having AA) then you will lose the same as or less than you did by the way you played it (depending on the size of your raise). The only difference is that you didn't give yourself the chance to win an uncontested pot or value bet your possible 22-1 favorite (ignore the fact that he would have gotten extremely lucky by spiking a set on the turn if he held KK because he would have paid the wrong price for it.) the way you played it.
[ QUOTE ]
If that is your range, then what are you seriously hoping to flop? His continuation bet after being checked to makes sense with ANY of the hands you put him on. Maybe he wants to find out where his QQ or KK stands after an ace hit.
I stress the importance of defining your hand. If you are prepared to abandon your mission with any resistance to a check raise (i.e. attribute a re-raise or call to him having AA) then you will lose the same as or less than you did by the way you played it (depending on the size of your raise). The only difference is that you didn't give yourself the chance to win an uncontested pot or value bet your possible 22-1 favorite (ignore the fact that he would have gotten extremely lucky by spiking a set on the turn if he held KK because he would have paid the wrong price for it.) the way you played it.
[/ QUOTE ]
I still don't see the point of check-raising. Once again, what am I trying to accomplish. And stop with this "you need to define your hand" mumbo jumbo you keep spewing. That accomplishes nothing here.
MegaBet
09-12-2005, 01:31 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Villain will almost certainly raise your flop bet with AK, so are you suggesting a fold in that case? I think kyro played the hand perfectly IMO.
[/ QUOTE ]
No he won't, that is a perfect flop for AK and he has nothing to protect. His opponent is probably drawing to at moste three outs, maybe he might want to try to extract the max out of AQ/AJ?
[/ QUOTE ]
Just trying to get your lines of thinking.
fatmanonguitar says probe bet the flop, and if you get raised then villain has AA and you fold.
durron is saying you won't get raised if villain has AK, so in that line of thinking villain most certainly won't raise with aces.
This is exactly why I recommend just calling him down. And hope he doesn't have AA or KK.
durron597
09-12-2005, 01:34 PM
[ QUOTE ]
durron is saying you won't get raised if villain has AK, so in that line of thinking villain most certainly won't raise with aces.
[/ QUOTE ]
No, I am saying that he *might* not raise with AK. He could as well. But the more important thing is that you cannot remove AK from his handrange by his flop call.
[ QUOTE ]
And stop with this "you need to define your hand" mumbo jumbo you keep spewing. That accomplishes nothing here.
[/ QUOTE ]
OK. You check-call the flop (and fail to define your hand). Let's say the turn is a brick (we don't need to be results-based) and he bets the pot or pushes - then what?
9-handed. 5 pay. I'm reading the responses on this site and all of a sudden my game pops up and I click all-in with 44 after a raise and a push. Initial raiser calls with KK. The chat goes...
omg
no
no
Flop is dealt and I only see the first card. 4.
I triple up w00t.
durron597
09-12-2005, 01:38 PM
[ QUOTE ]
OK. You check-call the flop (and fail to define your hand). Let's say the turn is a brick (we don't need to be results-based) and he bets the pot or pushes - then what?
[/ QUOTE ]
Call and win /images/graemlins/confused.gif duh
KramerTM
09-12-2005, 01:39 PM
[ QUOTE ]
9-handed. 5 pay. I'm reading the responses on this site and all of a sudden my game pops up and I click all-in with 44 after a raise and a push. Initial raiser calls with KK. The chat goes...
omg
no
no
Flop is dealt and I only see the first card. 4.
I triple up w00t.
[/ QUOTE ]
I put OR on 22 and RR on 33. Good push.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
OK. You check-call the flop (and fail to define your hand). Let's say the turn is a brick (we don't need to be results-based) and he bets the pot or pushes - then what?
[/ QUOTE ]
Call and win /images/graemlins/confused.gif duh
[/ QUOTE ]
So much for the OP losing as little as possible "if" villian has AA.
MegaBet
09-12-2005, 01:42 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
9-handed. 5 pay. I'm reading the responses on this site and all of a sudden my game pops up and I click all-in with 44 after a raise and a push. Initial raiser calls with KK. The chat goes...
omg
no
no
Flop is dealt and I only see the first card. 4.
I triple up w00t.
[/ QUOTE ]
I put OR on 22 and RR on 33. Good push.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sometimes they do have KK /images/graemlins/grin.gif Nice catch.
adanthar
09-12-2005, 01:43 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
OK. You check-call the flop (and fail to define your hand). Let's say the turn is a brick (we don't need to be results-based) and he bets the pot or pushes - then what?
[/ QUOTE ]
Call and win /images/graemlins/confused.gif duh
[/ QUOTE ]
Now you're thinking like me /images/graemlins/wink.gif Holla.
For the record, the turn bet is so weird I really do put him on AQ and call, then bet the river, but it's reasonably close and I don't mind a check/call.
KramerTM
09-12-2005, 01:44 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I really do put him on AQ and call.
[/ QUOTE ]
OP has unfortunately completely excluded this hand from Villain's range.
adanthar
09-12-2005, 01:46 PM
[ QUOTE ]
So much for the OP losing as little as possible "if" villian has AA.
[/ QUOTE ]
If villain has AA, he's generally not going to push overbet his top set on an Axxx board with three rainbow bricks.
Bet/folding the flop is the worst possible line on this hand I can think of, and if you're going to do that, just fold preflop and save yourself the reverse implied odds hovering all over your chips.
adanthar
09-12-2005, 01:49 PM
[ QUOTE ]
OP has unfortunately completely excluded this hand from Villain's range.
[/ QUOTE ]
I tend to exclude that hand, too, but that's before the donk turn bet. Adjusting your read based on action on future streets is fine.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I really do put him on AQ and call.
[/ QUOTE ]
OP has unfortunately completely excluded this hand from Villain's range.
[/ QUOTE ]
For the most part yes. Because I can't fathom very many people having this given PF action.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
OP has unfortunately completely excluded this hand from Villain's range.
[/ QUOTE ]
I tend to exclude that hand, too, but that's before the donk turn bet. Adjusting your read based on action on future streets is fine.
[/ QUOTE ]
Very good point.
MegaBet
09-12-2005, 01:50 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
OK. You check-call the flop (and fail to define your hand). Let's say the turn is a brick (we don't need to be results-based) and he bets the pot or pushes - then what?
[/ QUOTE ]
Call and win /images/graemlins/confused.gif duh
[/ QUOTE ]
Now you're thinking like me /images/graemlins/wink.gif Holla.
For the record, the turn bet is so weird I really do put him on AQ and call, then bet the river, but it's reasonably close and I don't mind a check/call.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've been a proponent of the check/call too. If villain min-re-raises prelop with AQ in the big blind, I'd put him down as a donk, make a note of him and hope to play him in as many games as possible. However, I really can't see someone doing this with AQ.
KramerTM
09-12-2005, 01:52 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
OK. You check-call the flop (and fail to define your hand). Let's say the turn is a brick (we don't need to be results-based) and he bets the pot or pushes - then what?
[/ QUOTE ]
Call and win /images/graemlins/confused.gif duh
[/ QUOTE ]
Now you're thinking like me /images/graemlins/wink.gif Holla.
For the record, the turn bet is so weird I really do put him on AQ and call, then bet the river, but it's reasonably close and I don't mind a check/call.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've been a proponent of the check/call too. If villain min-re-raises prelop with AQ in the big blind, I'd put him down as a donk, make a note of him and hope to play him in as many games as possible. However, I really can't see someone doing this with AQ.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've seen plenty worse at the 33s. All I'm saying is you shouldn't completely discount it. That's all.
citanul
09-12-2005, 01:54 PM
random here:
i've several times in the last week or so been minireraised with AJ and AQ in spots like these. however, given the position and the stakes, him trying to isolate you with AK, AQ, AJ, QQ-99 even, become likely as well. such hands could be attempting to just take a heads up pot with a guy who raised out of the sb, with position. wouldn't be all that crazy either.
however, yes, if the range you put him on is AK, AA, KK, the K on the turn is clearly the worst card that can come, as the one hand in that group you outflopped 1 outed you.
citanul
This post generated 50 replies for a reason!
There are slightly diffrerent takes on the line but no real consensus.
My thinking is that IF the OP decided that the PF min-raise represents either AA or KK (which he has essentially stated), then his AK is either all but dead OR needs to flop an ace to be a big favorite. After calling the raise and getting the best possible flop (within reason), one can think:
a) I want to lose as little as possible if he has AA
b) I want to win as much as possible if he has KK (again ignoring the turn card as the crucial street is the flop)
Do people not think it is important to either bet or raise to find out what we are likely up against? My instinct was to do just this, but perhaps a way-ahead or way-behind scenario is not the time to define your hand. I just don't like proceeding in the dark, or giving my opponent the opportunity to push me off a pot when I have the best hand.
While I agree that the villian would be unlikely to overbet a set of aces, if he indeed has this, he will try to get yur chips at some point.
durron597
09-12-2005, 02:15 PM
[ QUOTE ]
a) I want to lose as little as possible if he has AA
[/ QUOTE ]
Do you realize how low the probability is of him having AA is given your hand and the board? I mean you'd have to have a pretty sick read to give him ONLY AA/KK and even then on the flop there are 6 ways for him to have KK and 1 way for him to have meaning you have the best hand over 80% of the time.
Stop looking for ways to make Hellmuthian folds.
KramerTM
09-12-2005, 02:22 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
a) I want to lose as little as possible if he has AA
[/ QUOTE ]
Do you realize how low the probability is of him having AA is given your hand and the board? I mean you'd have to have a pretty sick read to give him ONLY AA/KK and even then on the flop there are 3 ways for him to have KK and 1 way for him to have meaning you have the best hand over 70% of the time.
Stop looking for ways to make Hellmuthian folds.
[/ QUOTE ]
Agree with everything you said, but still FYP.
durron597
09-12-2005, 02:25 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Agree with everything you said, but still FYP.
[/ QUOTE ]
Whoops, it's not 3*2 it's (3*2) / 2 /images/graemlins/grin.gif
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
a) I want to lose as little as possible if he has AA
[/ QUOTE ]
Do you realize how low the probability is of him having AA is given your hand and the board? I mean you'd have to have a pretty sick read to give him ONLY AA/KK and even then on the flop there are 6 ways for him to have KK and 1 way for him to have meaning you have the best hand over 80% of the time.
Stop looking for ways to make Hellmuthian folds.
[/ QUOTE ]
I AGREE!!!!! I was paraphrasing the OP and if you read my first response or two, I advised putting the villian on a range of hands and that the one and only hand you fear is not statistically likely (even if the betting patterns suggest this to you).
I would check-raise this flop for both value (considering that I am ahead of everything i put the villian on EXCEPT AA) and to define my hand. Some people responded that this line is silly and implied that it was because we are in a WAorWB scenario. I still think that this would be my preferred action on the flop followed closely by leading out for ~1/2 the pot.
KramerTM
09-12-2005, 02:30 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
a) I want to lose as little as possible if he has AA
[/ QUOTE ]
Do you realize how low the probability is of him having AA is given your hand and the board? I mean you'd have to have a pretty sick read to give him ONLY AA/KK and even then on the flop there are 6 ways for him to have KK and 1 way for him to have meaning you have the best hand over 80% of the time.
Stop looking for ways to make Hellmuthian folds.
[/ QUOTE ]
I AGREE!!!!! I was paraphrasing the OP and if you read my first response or two, I advised putting the villian on a range of hands and that the one and only hand you fear is not statistically likely (even if the betting patterns suggest this to you).
I would check-raise this flop for both value (considering that I am ahead of everything i put the villian on EXCEPT AA) and to define my hand. Some people responded that this line is silly and implied that it was because we are in a WAorWB scenario. I still think that this would be my preferred action on the flop followed closely by leading out for ~1/2 the pot.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not sure if it qualifies here as my brain is fried from clicking "Reply" so often, but typically when you are in a WA/WB situation, check-raising is not the optimal play.
gisb0rne
09-12-2005, 03:07 PM
I don't understand why you even call pre-flop if you are so sure that he has only AA, KK, or AK. That's just asking to lose money imo.
I don't think those are his only possible holdings. In fact I would put him on that range less than half the time. AQ, AJ, any pair...I've seen plays like this with all those hands. A lot of players don't seem to understand that you can raise more than the minimum.
adanthar
09-12-2005, 03:48 PM
[ QUOTE ]
When I have AK on an Axx board and am up against AA-QQ/AK, what I really want to do is checkraise to make kings and queens fold and everything else call/reraise. This defines my hand (to the other player) and helps me win as few chips while losing as many as possible. Also, I should just fold preflop again.
[/ QUOTE ]
I have altered your post to clarify your meaning
curtains
09-12-2005, 04:51 PM
FWIW I do not like flat calling the flop and checking the turn. A likely hand for the opponent is something like KK-JJ, and by slowplaying you may lose a lot of bets against such a hand. If you min raise the flop, these guys aren't world champions at folding KK-QQ.
They are a lot more skilled at checking behind on a blank turn, and possibly hitting one of their outs on the turn/river for free.
[ QUOTE ]
FWIW I do not like flat calling the flop and checking the turn. A likely hand for the opponent is something like KK-JJ, and by slowplaying you may lose a lot of bets against such a hand. If you min raise the flop, these guys aren't world champions at folding KK-QQ.
They are a lot more skilled at checking behind on a blank turn, and possibly hitting one of their outs on the turn/river for free.
[/ QUOTE ]
thank you
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